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TURTLE BAY ECO- What do you think?

Discussion in 'Brazil Property' started by ady1231, Jan 23, 2008.

  1. ady1231

    ady1231 New Member

    Hi Paul;

    Do you know any Law firm to suggest?
  2. redangel7861

    redangel7861 New Member

    I've also looked at Turtle bay. I've spoken to various agents and also spoke to the developer today. I had various issues regarding CGT, Flip costs, Legal Costs, Escro Costs, Community charge for not building and agency costs towards selling the land. I stated that this was simply a land investment and there were to many costs associated with flipping the land. Here is my interpreation of the costs:

    1. CGT - only payable if you flip the property once is has been fully registered in your name i.e. once you have made the final payment of 25% on the land - this will be in late 2010;

    2. Filp charge of £1,200 per plot you can pass onto the party you are selling to;

    3. Legal costs of £1,100 - You are paying this to attain a tax number in Brazil. I'm sure these costs can be reduced if you apply for a number yourself;

    4. Escro charge £350+ VAT - this you have to pay

    5. Community Charge - Community won't be established until 2012. Surely would have filpped the land by this time;

    6. Agency costs for selling cost vary from 2.5% to 5% - this can be negotiated.

    Anyone elso looking to buy on Turtle bay - I'm not looking to make a move until I get written confirmation that David LLoyd have signed. Again there are ways of reducing the costs of owning a plot, if not then there are to many associated costs in my opinion.

    TURTLE Bay development seems to be of a higher quality than proposed other resorts in the area. With David LLoyd on board it adds to the appeal of this development. What kind of capital gains would people envisage on this type of land deal, TAKING INTO ACCOUNT THAT DAVID LLOYD ARE NOW ON BOARD?

    Other opinions welcome.
  3. PAUL-brasil

    PAUL-brasil New Member

    Hi Andy

    Yes I do, I ve spoken to quite a few including some which as been mentioned to you in another thread, which are very expensive because they normally just forward the work to a local law firm who operates in that area, take their bill then add 30-40%. I ve actually met Nabas in London, let me just simply say that I didnt want to use them. I will forward you some big but local Law firms from Fortaleza in a PM.
  4. wolfgang

    wolfgang New Member

    Turtle Bay

    Red Angel,
    A reasonable analysis though there are additional costs involved.Buyers would also need to budget for power of attorney,notary and transfer costs.Most assume these are covered in legal fee quotes-the reality is they are not.
    You also need to ask yourself who exactly it is you will flip to and what factors are likely to generate gains.
    It would not be prudent to rely upon selling on to a local -at an average COST price of 30,000 uk pounds it will be beyond their means and for the few that can afford it,why would they wish to buy into a 99% European community?
    The majority of Brazilians who visit Bahia spend their time in Recife, Salvador,whilst the affluent travel to Maceio and Trancoco,not Belmonte.
    Fundemantally therefore that leaves the International aftersales market and they will be taking the short direct flights to Fortaleza and Natal,both of which are over a 1,000 miles closer to Europe.The resort in not even near a regional airport, let alone an International one-a key demand and capital appreciation influencing factor in the equation.
    For me,Turtle Bay is a great concept in the wrong location.
  5. RalphJ

    RalphJ New Member

    LOL....yeah, they sure can be reduced! Ya know how much it costs to get a CPF number here in Brazil???

    Less than 15 REAIS!!!!!

    That's a fiver!

    LOL.....oh brother.
  6. michaelbush

    michaelbush New Member

    Like lambs to the slaughter!!! Living here in Brasil like you Ralph, it never fails to amaze me how difficult it is to give free advice! I think the current cost of a CPF is 5R$, plus the hours of waiting your turn to deposit your application in the Receita Federal. Yes, if you cannot speak the language, or do not investigate the subject, you are going to get ripped off by international lawyers to do the work for you. The main problem is that people buy over the internet, almost like buying a CD from Amazon! They need to visit Brasil, and talk to people here who are not looking to profit from their knowledge, rather looking to protect their countrymen from unscrupulous people.
  7. wolfgang

    wolfgang New Member

    A quote of £1,100 is not an unreasonable legal fee if it also includes,background checks,title ,permit and licence verification,poa,etc.
    The consensus of advice from those based in Brazil is to use a Brazilian solicitor as it is cheaper and all the International law firms simply subcontract to a local anyway.
    This however overlooks an important factor-namely that few legal practices in Brazil offer any form of insurance without having to pay additional fees.
    So basically,in the event of incorrect advice being provided there is no recourse.
    Conversely,a reputable International firm will often issue a certificate of title so investors will receive a guarantee confirming tax,ownership,permissions etc.
    A U.K Law firm is also regulated by the Law Society and possesses professional indemnity -well worth paying the extra money imho when making an investment in the tens of thousand ££'s.
  8. RalphJ

    RalphJ New Member

    You're assuming quite a lot wolfgang. And I can tell you from experience, if one assumes that a lawyer here in Brazil is going to perform the same activities that a lawyer in the U.K. or the U.S. performs, well, it normally just ain't so. And, if one assumes that a U.K. lawyer or a U.S. lawyer is familiar with everything that needs to be done here in Brazil to ensure "due deligence", such as the property is "free and clear" in respect to tax debts, employee debts, debts to vendors, in the last two cases when buying a brazilian business or existing entity, well, I've also discovered that normally it just ain't so.

    Investors need to have everything spelled out in black and white...especially when paying "legal fees". What does the legal fee being paid entail? Title check? Property tax (IPTU) check? Other business debts accrued in the case of buying or investing in an existing entity or brazilian business? CPF card?

    In this instance this poster claimed that this 1,100 POUND fee, which is today around 3,300 reais, is for obtaining a "tax number". That's simply a CPF number which can be obtained by any old Joe by simply going to a government bank, such as Banco do Brasil or Caixa Economica, filling out some paperwork, and then taking this paperwork to Receipta Federal. A CPF card can be achieved, at least the CPF number, in a matter of a few hours and as Mike and myself have previously stated, for FIVE pounds or less....not 1,100!

    This was/is also a charge that infamous con-artists here in Brazil have used and do use to con people and grossly overcharge them for their services here in Brazil.
  9. wolfgang

    wolfgang New Member

    Hello Ralph,
    I am on very safe ground in assuming that the £1,100 quoted covers more than just obtaining a CPF number.
    In fact it is not even an assumption at all.The International Law firm representing Turtle Bay is IPLC based out of Covent Garden in London.They are a reputable U.K. top tier firm with 20 years experience and whilst i agree that many organisations overcharge for very simple tasks which in most instances can be done by the individual,this is not the case in this instance and i stand by my original statement that their quote is a reasonable one-particularly as there will be no VAT to pay.
    For Legalex,Manzanares etc who now have a minimum fee of 1,500 Euros (£1,119) VAT will be payable in addition.
  10. redangel7861

    redangel7861 New Member


    You are correct in assuming the legal costs will cover more than attaining the relevant tax number.

    You seem negative on TB. With regards to the local Airport is it not already receiveing international flights from many destinations in Europe???

    Also the premium paid takes into account that TB the first resort of it's type in the area, i.e. planning approved and International company with resorts in Dubai, Cyprus (David LLoyd) now signed up to manage this resort. The resort will also be finished to European standards. Prices will be increased by the developer to the tune of 30% in 2008 and that's not taking into account the increase in the price of land.

    With regards to resale, are not the ever increasing affluent Brazilians making this area a more popular holiday destination. We also need to take into account that the resort will be finished to European standards. A quality product will always attract the rich. In my opinion, there is a lot of rubbish for sale in Brazil, and this seems like one of the more quality developments.

    Again as ever, comments welcome.
  11. deedee1

    deedee1 New Member

    :)Hi all,

    Even so if you assuming that a CPF number will cost you £1100 in legal fees then so be it!! :rolleyes:

    If I was in brazil I would do it myself for a fiver but equally if I cant get there due to my hectic schedule and pay thw £1100 fee it would still work out half the price than me paying the cost of a 2 week package hols in brazil right now!!

    Take care-D :)
  12. michaelbush

    michaelbush New Member

    Dee- you can download the application forms of the internet from the receita federal site, and I think apply on line too. You will get your number and then you have to then get the plastic card when here. You will need an address here in Brasil to use as a mailing address. Or of course you can go to the consulate- and as a last resort, please send me £550 and I will do it for you at sale price!!:D
  13. fiona1

    fiona1 New Member

    I have just applied for my CPF at the Brazil Embassy in London. It cost £4.
  14. robh

    robh Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    Unfortunately doing it that way takes about three months, so if you aren't in a hurry ....
  15. timatthebeach

    timatthebeach New Member

    i got a friendly agent to do it in brazil. cost £25 and took 3 days, i just filled in forms and he sent someone to go stand in line for me at the federal office and get it all stamped.
  16. Gee69

    Gee69 New Member

    Hi ye all Brazil Property owners !!

    I am a fist time investor, currently researching options in Brazil...

    I see that most of the deals are initiated and finalised on the web. I am aware of the risks involved in online deals and I would like to know genuine and reliable agents to deal with.

    Can anyone let me know the credentials of 'Property Showrooms' based in Spain. They have been in constant touch with me for about a month now.

    Similarly how are EQuity - London, CPS-Ireland and Experience International-U.K.

    2) Do you guyz believe in making a visit to the site before taking the plunge ? I know there are ppl who dont.

    Similarly I am of the opinion that a local investigation would fetch much better deals - both in terms of pricing as well as actual potential for returns.


  17. Gee69

    Gee69 New Member

    I am a first time overseas investor, stumbled upon Brazil recently.

    I would like to know how secure is an investment made from such a distance. In case you do not live close by, how do you manage to "look after" your property in Brazil... or is there no need to bother on that ?

    I know many developing nations where 'un authorised squatting' could be a terrible menace.
    More so because local laws would favour the squatter if the owner has not visited the site in a while !!

    Have you made visits to your site before/ after purchase ?



    (Agents are on my neck to sign up for Turtle Bay ... :) .......
  18. wolfgang

    wolfgang New Member

    If that is a concern,opt for a resort community with 24 hour security.
    I have no direct experience with the agents you mention other than with Property Showrooms and i would certainly regard them as one of the better intermediaries.
    Whilst they do not always conduct a prior site visit, they do check out the developments they represent to a greater extent than most.:)
  19. fiona1

    fiona1 New Member

    Hi Gee

    Brazil is a HUGE place. It would be like saying I want to invest in UK. There are many many different areas in Brazil - cities and coastal resorts.

    Most of the population of Brazil, and the wealth and infrastructure are in the southern states. And the north of Brazil is very poor. Brazilians in the south prefer to holiday in the south as well. So you need to think about how long you want to hold the investment and who will buy it from you when you need to sell it.

    You need to know your reasons for investing, and what you want from the investment. Is it pure investment? - do you want a rental yield? Or are you happy for just capital appreciation? Would you want to stay in the property yourself? And of course, what your budget is.

    Also, if you can, if you have the time, you really should see something before you buy it. If you cannot, and you must buy "site-unseen", make sure you do as much research as you can into the development and into the area. Ask the agent the downsides or risks in the property, as there are always risks.

    Like Belmonte, which is quite remote and difficult to access, and it would be interesting to know if any Brazilians are actually buying here, or just foreigners.

    Good luck :)
  20. RalphJ

    RalphJ New Member

    I agree with most you have written, except there is enormous wealth in the north and northeast of Brazil. The problem is, that it is in the hands of "very few" people. The " coroneis" here in the northeast hold enormous tracts of land, and many literally worth hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars.

    And numerous brazilians that live in the south holiday in the northeast of Brazil....they do this because of the weather, but normally in the months of December-February.

    There's another misnomer about the south of Brazil being more dangerous than the north or northeast of Brazil simply because Rio and Sao Paulo are in the south. While statistics show that proportionally the most dangerous places in Brazil are located in the north/northeast of Brazil, in Pernambuco, Alagoas, and areas throughout the Amazon, but also in the far south, such as Florianopolis, where people always brag about higher levels of education, better infrastructure, and less violence. Violence is a plague that unfortunately exists wherever you go throughout Brazil.
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