Sonhos do Mar

[debzor]

I certainly do remember Deb. But I haven't shut it down because that would look like we have something to hide and we don't.

Cheers

John

Well, John, at the time I think I managed to achieve the distinction of looking like a complete fool, because I was suckered into reacting to the provocation!

To your credit you have reacted under sustained fire with politeness, honesty, and sincerity, and it certainly appears to me that you have tried to answer all the questions to the best of your ability whilst retaining a degree of separation as befits a moderator. Sometimes however there is nothing you can do to stop those that may seek to make false accusations to discredit you - it is clear to all that you have nothing to hide.

Therefore I suggest that others looking in from the outside will be able to clearly see what is what, and sort the chaff from the wheat. For others, I should also make it clear that we have never met, have no business dealings and I do not know anything about this development.

So you should have no qualms about banning, deleting and shutting the thread down in due course.

 

[michaelbush]

Hi everyone- I have been missing for a long time, but have still been working here in Natal, now for some long time, with my own construction projects for popular housing. and have now been spending some time catching up on the news on Sonhos do Mar.

I have personally visited the development, and can only say that the houses have been built 4" raft of reinforced concrete. The system is called Lajes Ravier and can be checked on Google. In the UK the system is called Floating raft, I believe. It is not yet totally clear why it has resulted in subsidence in some houses, with serious cracking of walls being apparent.

Having spoken personally to one of the unhappy owners it is apparent that they have NOT, as of yesterday been offered compensation yet, as intimated by John Broad, although it may be in the minds of the developer to do so. There do seem to be a number of iproblems with the development, which may or may not be able to be resolved amicably, depending on the will of Grupo Natal. IMG seem to respond in timely fashion to problems that arise.

Unfortunately the legal system here is so slow I expect the posters here have taken to this blog here, to air their grievences, rather than engage in protracted and expensive legal action.

This may or may not be the solution for them, I am NOT a lawyer, but would suggest that any owner engage their own surveyors/engineers here, to check the construction and plans, as it also appears that what was delivered was not what was advertised and paid for, and build quality is something that is in the interests of both constructor and buyer, as guarantee claims can be expensive. Maybe a helpful point would be for the constructor or representative here, directs owners as to WHERE they can obtain copies of the entire project for which planning consent was given, apart from the plans of individual houses. It appears that there are obstacles to obtain them from the town hall.

I will take the time next week to visit the site again, and will be able to report what has been done to rectify those houses which clearly have problems, and as to the provision of the infrastructure that was part of the project, which is now said to have been delivered.

Incidentally the development is known to a number of agents who have declined to market it, as I am told. Any posters here would do well to visit the site before making any comment, as obviously there are very conflicting statements being made by the two sides, directly involved, and third party comments will be ill informed without a site visit, and the TRUTH will only be apparent when the reality is confronted.

If I can be of any help to either side to resolve problems, I am willing to mediate.

Regards
Michael

 

[JMBroad]

Wow!

Hi Michael. A bit surprised you decided to post this without talking to me as we've met on more than one occasion and you know how to get in touch with me. Would have been nice if you'd decided to hear both sides of the story before launching into a tirade like this however...

First off congratulations on starting your own developments. The last time we met you were still an agent promoting other peoples developments.

In fact on your website, you need to update this drastic change as it makes it look like you are still promoting numerous development on your site which are many years overdue on delivery and at least a couple which you and I both know will never be delivered as the developer has given up on them.

Many of the buyers on the aforementioned developments who have lost their whole investments are active on this forum so probably don't appreciate that you are still trying to convince other people to invest in them when the developers themselves acknowledge they have been abandoned.

Do you speak Portuguese yet? Perhaps if you do you could go and speak to the town hall and ask them why they approved Sonhos as having been built according to plans, show them your credentials and the studies you've done on the development and inform their engineers on how to properly do inspections (I'm sure that will be appreciated).

As for stating that perhaps the owners have taken legal action but because of the slow moving legal system, etc - you should probably know by now, having lived in Brazil for so long, that you can easily check who has had legal action taken against them. Basically I'm saying before posting this nonsense you could (and a responsible person would have) checked and seen that the information you were given is wrong and avoided repeating it in a public forum.

I'm finding out today if I need surgery or not - hopefully I won't which will mean I'll be back in the office on Monday - if so I'll let you know and I would be delighted to visit Sonhos together and you can point out to me what you, in your expert opinion believe should be different. From your post it appears to me that you haven't actually been to Sonhos yet or at least not in the past year and a half. It should be an interesting visit.

I would, if I were you, check all the facts you've stated in your post and then edit it according to the truth because if you don't, you are basically guilty of libel and will also be subject to legal action. You are an adult and should know that you can't simply repeat what someone has told you without checking the facts of the matter.

Have a nice day and I look forward to seeing you next week.

 

[JMBroad]

This may or may not be the solution for them, I am NOT a lawyer, but would suggest that any owner engage their own surveyors/engineers here, to check the construction and plans, as it also appears that what was delivered was not what was advertised and paid for, and build quality is something that is in the interests of both constructor and buyer, as guarantee claims can be expensive.

This actually makes sense and as you can see from my reply to Peko a few posts earlier, this is exactly what we also recommend to any owners who are worried or concerned - have a representative of theirs visit the development with us to ascertain exactly what the situation is of the development and of their individual unit.

 

[michaelbush]

Hi John- I am pleased to see that you did at least read twice what I wrote! I did not propose to take sides, or get personally involved with any disputes Grupo Natal may have with their clients. I have indeed been to the site in the last few months, (it is close to where I have land in the lake of Alcaçuz),and seen some of the problems for myself, which is why I suggested that third party comments should only be made once they have visited the site.

It is not for me to go to work on behalf of any of your owners, visiting town halls etc. I merely suggested that it would be helpful if you could advise your clients where they can obtain the original project plans for the development, and for their individual houses, as I understood that Grupo Natal has not provided them to the client. It is clear from the original maquete that there are some differences when compared to photos of how it is now. My information of course could be wrong, and I would always be pleased to have a beer with you, once you have recovered health, to chat and catch up.

I no longer am associated with the business which was previously promoting some product here in Brasil. As I understood the web site developer was instructed to remove product a long time ago. Incidentally we did not make any sales of those products which is a relief, and I have NEVER tried to sell anything to anyone who does not believe they should visit Brasil first, and merely wants to buy from internet agents. These are the same people who complain when they lose their money. In most cases the developer is reliant totally on client installments being paid for the construction to continue. With the world banking crisis, people failed to meet payments and construction stopped. This would not happen in the UK - no constructor gets paid more than a small reservation fee, with the payment for property being dependent upon satisfactory delivery.

My clients for my projects are all Brasilian, and within the government scheme of Minha casa Minha vida. None of my constructions rely upon client monies to fund the cosntruction. Yes I do speak Portuguese and have done so for several years now, a necessity here in Natal!

I hope sincerely that you can deal with any problems, and that the site will be finally fully constructed. I went past today on the way to Alcaçuz and was pleased to note that while the road is yet to be paved, they had at least had a machine there and levelled the potholes - the road now is at least passable right through to Alcaçuz! For how long that will last who knows, but the heavy rainy season is over now till next year, so perhaps it will be ok for a while. Town Halls are notably slow in spending money on paving the roads, but next year is election year so maybe there will be the usual flurry of activity in search of re-elections. What is lamentable is that the Caixa will no longer grant mortgages for property that does not have a paved access, thus passing the costs of paving to the constructor and thence to the very buyers who the government is trying to help, ie the poorest people in the country!

Rant over!

 

[JMBroad]

Hi Michael

I assumed you were still associated with the site because you still advertise the website in your signature link here on the forums.

It appeared to me that you had taken sides because you wrote several things which are not fact and you could believe if you'd been misinformed and not done your own research, namely;

... it has NOT been built to even Brazilian standards. There do not appear to be proper foundations, the houses seem to have been built on a 4" raft of reinforced concrete only. This has resulted in subsidence in some houses, with serious cracking of walls being apparent...

The whole of this paragraph is libelous and untruthful. As such it is hardly "impartial".

Having spoken personally to one of the unhappy owners it is apparent that they have NOT, as of yesterday been offered compensation yet, as intimated by John Broad, although it may be in the minds of the developer to do so.

I say we have, the person you spoke to says we haven't - and rather than ask me you decide I must be lying? Funnily enough it is the same person who very wisely is avoiding any potential libel himself by getting you and Peko to post his grievances. Very clever of him, very foolish of the two of you.

There do seem to be a number of irregularities with the development

Based on what? Again - not factual, not impartial and not wise from a legal point of view.

Unfortunately the legal system here is so slow I expect the posters here have taken to this blog here, to air their grievences, rather than engage in protracted and expensive legal action.

Again - what legal cases? Not impartial, not factual.

Incidentally the development is known to a number of agents who have declined to market it, as I am told.

Probably my favorite - name a single agency, local or overseas who we approached asking them to market our developments and who have refused. I could name dozens both locally and overseas who have asked us but we have refused.

Once again Michael - I look forward to the opportunity of visiting the development with you next week however I suggest you read your post very carefully again and edit it to be based on your factual knowledge rather than assumptions or hearsay. I will not repeat this request.

Have a nice day.

 

[michaelbush]

Thank you John for pointing out that I still had a signature with a web link- have changed that now. It has been probably more than a couple of years since I stopped posting- when the likes of Dotty were here!

As regards your comments, I do not propose to be piggy in the middle here- and if my comments are hearsay, they have been written as such, and whilst you seem to want to discuss personally some matters, you also seem to want me to post here, responses to continue provocation - that is not my intention! These comments are best left to when we can visit the site one day next week when for sure you can have your own engineer there (who I understand is fairly newly appointed),and various points of contention can be shown to you.

I am happy to speak personally about agents who told me they would not market your development, but then it could also be that they were not asked to!

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelbush
Unfortunately the legal system here is so slow I expect the posters here have taken to this blog here, to air their grievences, rather than engage in protracted and expensive legal action

Please read again what I said here John, and not jump to conclusions- I have NOT said they have engaged in legal actions - just that they preferred to air their grievances here. Right or wrong, that is their decision- if you feel that you want to take legal action against them or indeed me, then I do not think that would be constructive at all. Better to deal personally with the clients, and resolve any grievances amicably. Litigation here is slow at best, and as moderator you have it in your power to have the site owner remove posts or indeed whole threads.

I trust you will be in better health next week- please call me to fix a day to visit, and I will make time to go there with you. Hopefully take the steam out of the situation, and get the two sides talking again.

 

[Chris Churchill]

Good morning. Just thought l should introduce myself

I am an owner of a property at Sonhos do Mar, my partner Brasilian by the way and l were the first people to live on this site. We have lived here for more than one year and have been able to see at first hand the developement grow and watch with interest as to how these houses were constructed. (many photos). My wife and l, as we were married here Brasil earlier this year are one of three residents that live here and just recently we have seen 6 more houses being occupied at present, l assume on a rental basis.

I believe l am the person JMBroad is refering to in his conversation with Mike Bush

 

[michaelbush]

As promised John Broad accompanied me to see the problems that I was advised of by one of the residents there. Whilst it is clear that there is an impasse of a personal nature with one resident who has suffered several problems, I can confirm that IMG/Grup Natal is responsive to effect repairs to those houses where evidence of problems have occurred. I can also confirm that the method called Lajes Ravier for the foundations, is acceptable here in Brasil, and you can Google it to see how it should be done.

The resident who seems to have suffered most, and living there for more than a year, has been offered another house on the development, and this is the offer of compensation that John referred to. The resident however did not consider that to be compensation, so there is an impasse here, and I have to say that I can see both sides of the story, and can only ask that both parties engage in dialogue together rather than enter into protracted litigation. I have suggested to them that they engage a professional to examine their particular case.

It is a shame that John did not have with him, the plans or project, so that the details could be studied, but we did have a constructive conversation on site, and I hope that with the repairs effected, the problems with some houses are now remedied. Time will tell.

I am told by John Broad that in regard to the equipment for the Gymnasium, there is a divide with owners, some wanting the area left open for natural ventilation and the supplier of the equipment demanding the area be closed (and thus requiring air-conditioning-and a cost to condominium),if the guarantee of the equipment is not to be voided. With the humidity it is clear that the equipment would most likely corrode and I can understand the supplier point. I suggest a vote be taken to resolve this matter, so the facility can be completed

 

[JMBroad]

Thank you for that Michael - was good to see you again and thank you for taking the time to come and see the development.

I'd like to take this opportunity to clarify a few other items which were discussed at the meeting which I think are important to mention.

1) When the local expert you brought to the meeting (Brazilian engineer) heard what we have done for our clients (including but not limited to: not only paying the fines for late delivery but paying 36% more than contractually obliged to) and the compensation we had offered the client you mentioned, he was amazed and stated that he doesn't know of any other developer in the area who would have done the same thing for their clients.

2) The sentence "There do seem to be a number of irregularities with the development" would not be how you would describe the development having been there and seen the development yourself as it could lead people to believe that there are problems related to the infrastructure in the development, the access to the river, the football pitch, tennis court, games room, swimming pool, spa, padel court and other amenities etc.

3) The one agency (local Brazilian agent) who seemingly refused to market one of the houses for the aforementioned owner on the development was previously marketing the development for us as they asked us if they could and we allowed them to. About six months ago I was about to rent a house through them for personal use when I discovered they were not acting in a legal or ethical way with their clients (after signing the rental contract with them they then demanded not only 3 months retainer but also that I pay them one months "commission" even though they were receiving a commission from the owner of the house I was going to rent). Upon not being able to resolve this issue we withdrew their ability to market our developments. This is probably why they do not want to handle the sale for an owner - which I think is a good thing.

No agents have ever been approached by us as the developer who have refused to market our developments - we have an impeccable reputation with both local and overseas sales partners.

As mentioned - I didn't take the plans and projects to the meeting because that was not the purpose of the meeting however any owner who wishes to have copies of their plans or projects can contact me directly and I will have them delivered.

 

[Chris Churchill]

Sohos do Mar

John it is so nice to know that all projects for our house at Sonhos Do Mar are now available as l personally contacted you back in late February this year asking for these, and my wife has since been in contact with your company lawyers on a regular basis even up until this morning asking them. So this is great news, we look forward to recieving them. Thank you

 

[michaelbush]

Well John, I am surprised that you have interpreted things as you have. You are well aware that the person I brought with me merely confirmed that in relation to the company offering compensation in excess of the contractual requirement for late delivery was indeed unusual.

During the meeting you intimated that you had spoken to one owner - you know who- that very morning, and sent her photographs of her house (that I am told she has been requesting since April),and also had these photos sent. This was after she had asked Chris to also send them since she had been waiting so long, and had not spoken to you personally since last October, but did have a message on answerphone.

John you have painted a very different picture to the reality, and furthermore the meeting concluded, before my colleague had actually seen very much apart from the empty Gym, and the broken paths. He confirmed that lajes Ravier are a method of foundation used which should be fine. He had not had the chance to look at the plans, nor the advertised facilities to compare with the actual site, nor the repairs effected to remedy various problems. and thus your conclusions are not exactly correct.

Your post here seems to be provoking a response as were your previous posts. Just why I do not know, but I do not propose to enter into argument here. Personally I would prefer that your company deal with you clients directly, and not provoke argument here.

In your point 3. above you have certainly got the wrong end of the stick- the agent who was offered the house of Chris for sale was NOT the agent that you tried to rent from, but another who refused to handle it. Indeed Chris has been trying to sell his house for some time now without result. He did actually have a client who came with one of the agents and that client was put off buying, by someone else on site, and instead rented a house from your company.

I would still describe that there are irregularities with the site, but for sure, now you are going to deliver the plans and project to owners any discrepancies will be clearer. The images on your own publicity does not reflect what has been built, nor does that which is on the web-sites of sales agents, but then I am sure you know that. These are the irregularities I refer to.

I have tried to be objective but it seems that you want to take things out of context and paint a picture of perfection- unfortunately this is not the case right now. I hope it will be.

Finally I asked you to bring plans and the project to the meeting because Chris had so far not been able to get them. And I thought the whole purpose of the meeting was so that you could prove to me that the site and houses etc. are as per the approved plans, and at least very similar to the publicity images used by yourselves and various agents worldwide, including the one that Chris bought through, 360 Property in Spain.

 

[JMBroad]

The goal of the meeting was put down very clearly by me in the first ten minutes of our meeting when we sat down together and I explained why I was there. You made several accusations on a public forum which were based on hearsay and I wanted to give you the opportunity to see the reality for yourself and recant your statements so that the owner of the company would not feel that legal action needed to be taken to protect the reputation and integrity of the company.

You said that "the person I brought with me merely confirmed that in relation to the company offering compensation in excess of the contractual requirement for late delivery was indeed unusual." I said that he was amazed at what we had done and didn't know of any other developer in the area who would do the same thing. The reason I said this was after telling you what we had done as compensation the look on his face was of amazement - I then specifically asked him if he knew of any other developer in the area who would do the same for their customers and he said that he didn't.

 

[penelopy]

Peko posted numerous legal cases against your company . He has a right to air facts .They have been erased to save face . There seem to be several angry purhasers out there.It might be better to offer them comfort rather than threats besides it`s your company that will be facing them in court so try to get on their side.

Whenever you post on the internet, you leave a digital signature. As a moderator I can see that digital signature and Peko, Peko555, Peko444 and Hopper all have the same one. That is what has been sent to the authorities and the owner of them is who will be sued. All that needs to be done is contact the Internet Provider who owns the signature and ask them who had that signature during these dates.

I have also taken legal action against the person who rang my mobile phone at the early hours of the morning last Friday after being told I was sick and on pain killers 48 times in the space of under one hour for harassment.

I really am sorry, I didn't want it to come to this and I did warn you several times to simply comply with their contractual obligations and make your final payment and arrange for someone to visit your house to do the snagging so that you could see that everything is in order. If the house had not been finished, if the house was unfit for living (as you know the town hall has issued the habitational license) or if there was a problem with the development which made it impossible for you to live in, then I would be on your side to get the money back from the owner of the company. As you know, I'm only an employee who works for a company which does the marketing for the developer of this development.

I of course can not know for sure that you are the same person who called me 48 times last Friday but I do know who that person is and I know every one of the people who bought on this development so I can be 99% sure that you are the same person. It is disappointing for me personally having spent the last two years in constant contact with the person and after all we did for him.

Have a nice day.

 

[JMBroad]

Thanks Penelopy but

a) the legal cases peko posted shouldn't have been deleted. I am guided by the forum rules and so I don't delete posts to hide them. We have nothing to hide - every client who buys with us normally hires a lawyer and that lawyer checks the legalities of the company and those court cases show up and are waived because they are not a concern. I will check to see if the post was deleted and if it was I'll restore it

b) One angry purchaser (peko) has posted and one concerned party (Michael Bush) who is a personal friend of another angry purchaser has posted. To the best of my knowledge neither of them have taken legal action against the company however it is not my intention to threaten anyone - we are all adults and if someone is wise enough to make false claims about a company then they must also be wise enough to answer those claims in court.

As for trying to get on their side - you must have missed the part where I said that Peko called my mobile phone 48 times in under an hour (starting at 6:30 am) knowing that I was in bed on pain killers to "make me pay" for not having answered his call the day before when I was in bed ill. I have no desire nor intention to get on his side.

 

[JMBroad]

Actually just checked - it was moderated because of the inflammatory remarks under the links however it is not hard to find out court cases against any company in Brazil.

http://www.tjrn.jus.br/

 

[AlexV]

Hi!

Just like to say that I've been living in Sonhos do Mar for about a month with my family, and from day one we've been having a few small but very annoying problems.

First of all, whenever the rain comes from the front of the house, water comes in from under the glass doors. This has been frequently reported to the administrators, and has not yet been fixed. Just today, a new attempt was made as to repair the faults.
Also, the showers don't work properly. Either the water is cold, or to hot for anyone to bathe in it. An all new shower was put in by the administration, but to no result. The problem appears to be not enough water pressure. No new solutions were presented.

The use of the internet that is advertised, has more days without working, than the days it does work. Had to buy a mobil internet modem myself, so as to be abble to comunicate with the outside world.

And today, a whole new and much bigger problem occurred. A house was broken in to,during the night, with the ocupants inside. No one was hurt, and nothing was taken, but the peace and tranquility that everyone had is gone. At least for the moment.

Me and my family would just like to know what is going to be done about the (in)security felt.


Sonhos do Mar is a very nice place to live in, IF the small faults were fixed, and there was a bit more attention to the details before the houses were delivered for rent.

Thanks for the attention

 

[michaelbush]

Hi!
.
First of all, whenever the rain comes from the front of the house, water comes in from under the glass doors. This has been frequently reported to the administrators, and has not yet been fixed. Just today, a new attempt was made as to repair the faults.

Strange this- John told me at our meeting last week, that they had already fixed this problem!!!

 

[JMBroad]

Hi AlexV

Welcome to the forums and a pleasure to meet you even under unfortunate circumstances such as these.

I've spoken to the administration company and conveyed your concerns to them however I believe you are already in touch with them and some of my colleagues. I had been told that the windows had been repaired already but I'll follow up on that.

Regarding the shower unfortunately that appears to be the norm with Brazilian showers. European showers are bad enough getting the right water pressure and temperature. There appears to be a setting you can get it to where it is just perfect but the margin for error is about 1 mm in either direction - I've lived in 5 different Brazilian properties since moving here and all had different shower systems but none of them work well, they are either too hot or too cold. I myself just bought a new shower system with an electric pump which is supposed to increase the water pressure to see if that resolves my problem at home but I'm not too optimistic - I'll let you know how it worked and if it solves my problem perhaps the administration company can try that.

Unfortunately the vast majority of Brazilian houses don't have a hot water system and the shower is an electric shower head which heats the water (I always find it odd to have the shower head plugged into the electricity because mixing water with electricity is a dangerous notion but here it is perfectly normal). I'm surprised the administration company replaced the shower head because that would normally need to be done by the owner of the house you are renting because the houses are delivered by the developer without showers heads exactly because there are a myriad of shower heads which range in price and quality and each owner chooses his own.

Regarding the internet connection I have asked the people who run the administration company and they have just informed me that they are in contact with the supplier to try and resolve the issue to get a better connection however unfortunately it takes time. I know that when the development was delivered we spoke to just about every supplier in Natal and this was the best quality/price we could find.

I did hear about the situation the night before last and it really does sound too fantastic to be true. I'm amazed that although no one noticed anything during the night or seemingly woke up, nothing was taken and the broken bedroom window was found the following morning which seemed to be the only indication that the house was broken into. I know the administration company is taking this very seriously and is in contact with both the police and the security company to try and figure out what happened and bring the responsible people to justice. My thoughts are with the family and I'm just pleased no one was hurt.

Best regards

John

 

[growler]

I just thought I would chip in with my "independent" experience regarding some of the minor problems mentioned by Alex V.

As John said, the shower issue is normal in Brazil and you can indeed pay varying prices. Most have a Summer and Winter setting on them and just a slight adjustment of the tap can make a big difference...eg less power = more heat.

You didn't mention the water not running away so that is a result. Generally you have to use your foot to scoop the water towards the drain.

The internet in general is poor. In the cities it is reasonable most of the time but when you get outside the cities it varies between "not very good" to c**p. My experience has been the latter, most of the time not even as fast as the "good old dialup" of the UK 10 years ago.

Just to clarify before anyone asks, I don't know John and I don't know of this resort either.