Blindness and stupidity when investing in Brazil

[JMBroad]

Brothels and Bars, great stuff that will help to double the value with all those Italians in town! At least someone knows where to pick a spot where prices are rising. Is "half built dodgy apartment" a technical term used by Estate Agents in a fluster because they are not selling much of their "attractively positioned, conveniently located, spacious, bijou apartments" off plan?

Yes, it's a technical term we use to describe a an apartment bought by a sap who didn't check any of the legalities of the product before he bought it so might end up losing everything.

Actually, we are having a record February despite your "dismal market" projections. Obviously the rest of the world doesn't agree with you.

 

[JMBroad]

Found a better solution - "ignore" option. GW is no more.

 

[michaelbush]

Thank you Surfing for the info re Air Comet Plus. It seems that they are doing the same thing that Thomsons do or did. When I asked why they only do flights Nov - April the answer was that the needed their planes for other routes for the summer in Europe. I believe that Arkefly operate all year fro Amsterdam (same group- Tui). Work has started on the new airport but in reality I do not see it opening before 2012-2014. Even then the statistics of required flights to service holiday homes being built, 45000 GNG, 35000 São Roque etc will require some 300 flights a week so that people can get there. This assumes 2 persons per unit only nad 2 week breaks. That is just for those developments. It only re-inforces my investment strategy- invest in product that Brasilians will buy or rent, and you will not go wrong.

 

[KDJX]

Found a better solution - "ignore" option. GW is no more.

Oh well back to watching Coronation Street !!! It was good whilst it lasted. I'm left with the final thought of emptying the sewerage with a bucket...one of the best GW quotes !!

 

[robh]

Thank you Surfing for the info re Air Comet Plus. It seems that they are doing the same thing that Thomsons do or did. When I asked why they only do flights Nov - April the answer was that the needed their planes for other routes for the summer in Europe. I believe that Arkefly operate all year fro Amsterdam (same group- Tui). Work has started on the new airport but in reality I do not see it opening before 2012-2014. Even then the statistics of required flights to service holiday homes being built, 45000 GNG, 35000 São Roque etc will require some 300 flights a week so that people can get there. This assumes 2 persons per unit only nad 2 week breaks. That is just for those developments. It only re-inforces my investment strategy- invest in product that Brasilians will buy or rent, and you will not go wrong.

You should be asking Club Vacaciones as they are the operators of the flight, Air Comet just provide the plane and the crew, and CV operate all year.

 

[michaelbush]

You should be asking Club Vacaciones as they are the operators of the flight, Air Comet just provide the plane and the crew, and CV operate all year.

That may well be, but then it is Club Vacaciones who need the planes elsewhere servicing their summer brochure offers. In the case of Thomsons they are both the tour operator and charter airline.

 

[robh]

That may well be, but then it is Club Vacaciones who need the planes elsewhere servicing their summer brochure offers. In the case of Thomsons they are both the tour operator and charter airline.

I would personally still talk to CV as they use planes from a variety of airlines so Air Comet might not know.

 

[Golfingworld]

My dodgy half built apartment comes with a bucket, I hope the neighbours downstairs are not looking out of the window!

If I am correct, Tour Operators "Charter" aircraft, so if they want to do a programme to Natal and one airline pulls out, then the "Operator" charters another one, simple. The Tour Operators call the shots and the charter airline companies go where they are contracted to go. The Tour Operators don't go there because their is a charter airline going in that direction. So, to my mind a travel programme is pulled because the tour operator doesn't want to go there anymore for some reason, not because the airline needs planes for elsewhere. My guess is that Club de V don't have their own aircraft, unlike Northern European Tour Operators (TUI, T Cooke etc) so they can just pull in aircraft as and when they are needed. There is merit to Thomson needing their aircraft for more popular "summer" locations like Orlando and but Thomson operate to Natal in winter not summer when Orlando and Dom Rep are strong. The paradox is that First Choice (now owned by TUI) operate only to Salvador in summer and not in winter...if I was a betting man I'd say Natal is on the decrease for various reasons, certainly UK Tour Operators major on local excursions much more than others. If you saw their prices, you'd know why! UK Tour Guides earn most of their money from excursion commission and my guess is that Costa de Sauipe is much more profitable all round than Natal is for UK TUI. I would also guess that First Choice will become the chosen Brazil Brand for TUI and their strength is in Salvador not Natal.

As I have always stated Charter airlines or their associated tour operators are not in business to fill somebody else's apartments bought off plan! They are there to sell hotel packages and excursions for their own branded business. The only way these holiday developments work is if there is cheap easy and efficient flight access operated by flexible airlines, exactly what doesn't exist anywhere in Brazil neither now or any time in the future, so it seems.

 

[robh]

My dodgy half built apartment comes with a bucket, I hope the neighbours downstairs are not looking out of the window!

If I am correct, Tour Operators "Charter" aircraft, so if they want to do a programme to Natal and one airline pulls out, then the "Operator" charters another one, simple. The Tour Operators call the shots and the charter airline companies go where they are contracted to go. The Tour Operators don't go there because their is a charter airline going in that direction. So, to my mind a travel programme is pulled because the tour operator doesn't want to go there anymore for some reason, not because the airline needs planes for elsewhere. My guess is that Club de V don't have their own aircraft, unlike Northern European Tour Operators (TUI, T Cooke etc) so they can just pull in aircraft as and when they are needed. There is merit to Thomson needing their aircraft for more popular "summer" locations like Orlando and but Thomson operate to Natal in winter not summer when Orlando and Dom Rep are strong. The paradox is that First Choice (now owned by TUI) operate only to Salvador in summer and not in winter...if I was a betting man I'd say Natal is on the decrease for various reasons, certainly UK Tour Operators major on local excursions much more than others. If you saw their prices, you'd know why! UK Tour Guides earn most of their money from excursion commission and my guess is that Costa de Sauipe is much more profitable all round than Natal is for UK TUI. I would also guess that First Choice will become the chosen Brazil Brand for TUI and their strength is in Salvador not Natal.

As I have always stated Charter airlines or their associated tour operators are not in business to fill somebody else's apartments bought off plan! They are there to sell hotel packages and excursions for their own branded business. The only way these holiday developments work is if there is cheap easy and efficient flight access operated by flexible airlines, exactly what doesn't exist anywhere in Brazil neither now or any time in the future, so it seems.

Nice theory about Natal being on the wane, but as I said before I asked a friend at their head office and Thomson have no plans for stopping winter flights.

 

[ady1231]

Hey Guys;

I beleive this is turning ugly, instead of posting something useful, u r wasting your and our time with personal insults, especially Robh, Michael, Golfing, surfing, etc..

Guys please be reasonable, i am yet to find a useful thred on Brazil Forum. I have started 2 my self, and was flooded with unreasonable comments from indivisuals and Agents claiming that the deal i was getting was a rip - off!

Please stop talking about Airports, bridges and stuff, There is Money to be made in Brazil, even if all airlines stopped going there. This is the point i am trying to tell everyone, no need for your Common way of evaluating an investment (Only by which budjet airlines fly there),this reflects a total Misunderstanding of the Real Estate Investment.

Examples: Bulgaria - Budjet airlines just started flying there , yet most of the profits were made 3 years ago!
Estonia: Yes: I bought in Talinn in 2005, and there was 2 flights/week from London ONLY. I bought there not because Budjet airlines fly there, but because i felt that there is a money to be made, and i was damn right!

Montenegro: In fact, until now it's difficult to fly directly there, you have to fly to Croatia, and then drive. But Capital appreciation was 50% yty from 2004.

Please lets turn this in to a good forum, where normal investors like me can benefit from the guys who are actually live there, instead of insulting eachother!

Thanks You.

Addy

 

[mitico67]

Hi Addy, yes sometimes it gets ugly but I found a lot of info on this forum. Of course one should always double check everything but I've found quite few interesting topics. It's true that probably you can make money in Brazil and in every part of the world but most of the time people make money out of ignorance of someonelse. I do want to know if cheap flight are going there, if it will get possible to open bank accounts, what options on the internal and international market, if tourists are on the up, exchange rate etc. I was very keen in investing in the Northeast, I've even found a good development with a very interesting price through one of the participant of this forum but if a couple of things do not improve I will not commit myself. I do agree that personal insults shouldn't find space in the forum but a good exchange of opinion is more than welcome

 

[Golfingworld]

Insults are only traded because one or other comes out with unadulterated bullxxxx. It is what it is an internet forum, not a reference book, you pick through it, enjoy it, not enjoy it, get bored with it and move on. Everyone makes their view in different ways, you think flights are not an issue I do...and the silent majority sit there and make up their own mind. That's what it is all about in the end its a forum and great fun baiting those who are in denial because it suits their mission.

 

[michaelbush]

"I beleive this is turning ugly, instead of posting something useful, u r wasting your and our time with personal insults, especially Robh, Michael, Golfing, surfing, etc.."

Ady- could you please elaborate as to where I have posted any personally insulting matter?

I have only posted opinion, which for the record, is not necessarily in accord with others accused of personal insults. Since I live here, and see the problems everyday, like Ralph, I try to guide people to avoid the pitfalls. I have met several forum members over the last few months and am always pleased to meet others, without any hidden agenda, for a chat, a beer, advice on the best places to go or avoid.

 

[deedee1]

Hi all,

So far most threads have created healthy and informative debates and that is what the forum is intended for!!

All contributions are highly appreciated - and I will be the first to let you know when it becomes too out of hand or extremely personal and abusive!!

Everyone has their own opinion and are entitled to share their thoughts and views on the subjects!

Just because people disagree with eachothers opinions does not mean they are wrong!!

If everyone in the world agreed with eachother and didnt share their own opinions then the world would be a very unrealistic quiet and peaceful place to live!!

Take care all -happy posting!!!!!

AND PLEASE I CANT STRESS ENOUGH CAN WE TRY TO STICK TO THE THREAD TOPICS IN WHICH THE POSTS WERE INTENDED -AS TO NOT GO TOO MUCH OFF ON A TANGENT AND END UP DEBATING FLIGHT ISSUES EVERYWHERE!!!

AS VITAL AS A TOPIC IT MAY WELL BE!!!

Thanx D

 

[JMBroad]

I'm sorry Dee but I don't agree. GW is on my ignore list now and it's a wonderful world without him but his posts were constantly geared at annoying me. His constant insults of "agents in Europe", "google research", to the point where he would contradict himself merely to be argumentative and try and bait me into arguing with him.

 

[Golfingworld]

Don't worry as I'll soon be off to my "dodgy half finished apartment in Natal" that the ECO planners approved no problem, without windows or tv al cabo internet connection....but there's always those bars and bordellos to keep me busy!

 

[MikeC]

I see evidence most days to the contrary of thsi opening statement. Brazil is corrupt, we hav eendless issues at town hall, it is administarively retarded and one of teh worlds worst places to open a business and bank account. It has many social issues but its beach front land is way out of synch with global alternates and its tourism and more importantly global exposure/image is growing rapidly. Cheap prices, more exposure, no mystery what happens next, and its already happening. 2 years ago I was buying land of size X in taiba for 65USD, now that same land is worth 120USD. Did anybody watch Kho Samui, Thailand as it boomed in exposure and visitors. My question is this. With current low prices, limited beach front land and growing exposure = demand and arrivals , so how do you keep prices from soaring? how? Try and tell land owners prices have not risen, then try beach park or cumbuco and more and more beache sin Nth east where prices are rising.

 

[wolfgang]

Land Prices

I see evidence most days to the contrary of thsi opening statement. Brazil is corrupt, we hav eendless issues at town hall, it is administarively retarded and one of teh worlds worst places to open a business and bank account. It has many social issues but its beach front land is way out of synch with global alternates and its tourism and more importantly global exposure/image is growing rapidly. Cheap prices, more exposure, no mystery what happens next, and its already happening. 2 years ago I was buying land of size X in taiba for 65USD, now that same land is worth 120USD. Did anybody watch Kho Samui, Thailand as it boomed in exposure and visitors. My question is this. With current low prices, limited beach front land and growing exposure = demand and arrivals , so how do you keep prices from soaring? how? Try and tell land owners prices have not risen, then try beach park or cumbuco and more and more beache sin Nth east where prices are rising.

Yup,MikeC.Healthy returns are being made out of land in N.E.in Brazil ;that's for sure.You quote Fortaleza,though the same phenomenon is evident in and around Natal.
Prices i am now being quoted (via a number of contacts,including local Brazilian) are up 20% to 25% on June of last year.

 

[JMBroad]

I see evidence most days to the contrary of thsi opening statement. Brazil is corrupt, we hav eendless issues at town hall, it is administarively retarded and one of teh worlds worst places to open a business and bank account. It has many social issues but its beach front land is way out of synch with global alternates and its tourism and more importantly global exposure/image is growing rapidly. Cheap prices, more exposure, no mystery what happens next, and its already happening. 2 years ago I was buying land of size X in taiba for 65USD, now that same land is worth 120USD. Did anybody watch Kho Samui, Thailand as it boomed in exposure and visitors. My question is this. With current low prices, limited beach front land and growing exposure = demand and arrivals , so how do you keep prices from soaring? how? Try and tell land owners prices have not risen, then try beach park or cumbuco and more and more beache sin Nth east where prices are rising.

The thing is, that is happening all over. From relatively unknown places like Zumbi to Sao Miguel do Gostoso to Buzios and Tabatinga alike, land value has soared because there are so many people buying land (both European and Brazilian developers) that the land owners are now asking much much higher prices than before. There are still some good land deals to be had however but opportunities are less than before.

 

[surfingbrazil]

very few tourists in Natal

Hello everyone,

I have just arrived from a short holyday in Natal.
Well, if there were still any doubts about it I can assure you that the tourist season 2008 is going to be a disaster.

Moreover, not only the Real is strong but crooks control the Change at Praia Shopping: 2,44 reais to the Euro when the spot was 2,55 / 2,56.
I do know people who need Euros and I did not have problems to get a decent rate, but the average tourist is robbed.
Brazilian police are retaliating and barring some Spaniards from entering the country… again not a very wise thing to do if Brazil wants tourism to increase.

And finally all these mega resorts like Natal Golf are drowned in red tape and will not be ready any time soon.

But for the ones who own something good in Ponta Negra life goes as before and the value of our apartments have gone up, mainly because of the Brazilian demand.
The beach is still among the most beautiful beaches in the country, the “picanha” is still very tasty, the latinas are still very sexy, the wind is always there and the climate is just fantastic.