Blindness and stupidity when investing in Brazil

Discussion in 'Brazil Property' started by surfingbrazil, Nov 6, 2007.

  1. surfingbrazil

    surfingbrazil New Member

    Good morning everyone

    Reading some of the posts here I must say I am surprised by the degree of stupidity some of these “investors to be” have.
    First allow me to introduce myself: comprehensive professional experience in Brazil, 100% fluent in Portuguese, owner of a couple of apartments in Natal RN.

    When I see common investors going into “off plan” projects of 25.000 units, 10 resorts or 4 golf courses, all this spiced with new airports, marinas and so on… I am simply shocked.

    First of all let us put things into context:

    1.
    BRAZIL IS NOT A MAJOR TOURIST POWER. In fact, despite the beauty and other real assets of the country, Brazil ranks as no. 33, with arrivals at the level of countries like Sweden or Dominican Rep. No way such complexes are going to be filled (if ever concluded) with golfers and other tourists in a foreseeable future.

    2.
    BRAZIL HAS A HIGH LEVEL OF CORRUPTION, ranking as no. 62 in a list of 160 countries with a score of 3,7 (no. 1 being the les corrupt, with a score of 10). Certificates, deadlines, advice of lawyers, contracts and justice have a relative value there.

    In addition, the level of incompetence and bureaucracy is difficult to imagine for somebody who has not worked there.

    Gamblers, be blinded by smart web sites and go on with these science fiction projects.

    No Gamblers read this:
    do not buy anything just to get a rent, buy an apartment only as a long term investment and only if you like spending holidays in Brazil. You may cover expenses by renting to colleagues and friends, but do not count on it as a part of your budget.
    Buy something that exists and can be valued and assessed.
    Or, taking a risk, buy “off plan” ( “na planta”) only in major cities carefully selecting the project and only if this aims at Brazilians. Do not believe any mumbo jumbo guaranteeing rental income.

    I know what I am saying. Should anyone need advice in Rio Grande do Norte Natal: varatraza2000 in the gmail.

    Good luck
     
  2. KDJX

    KDJX New Member

    Whoopie do ..... that's brought us down to earth with a bang !!!

    I think I'll just move there instead a rent out my house in the UK (my cunning plan all along) !!!

    K
     
  3. surfingbrazil

    surfingbrazil New Member

    I do not want to argue with sellers.

    I did not say, “ do not buy in Brazil”, peruse the post, please. I do own property in Natal

    By the way, check your CURRENCY QUOTES; USD / BRL = 1,73
    (And not 2,50 as you write)

    About the new airport in Natal….. please give me a break !
    This is the kind of intoxicating mumbo jumbo sellers often present. First of all it is only political wishful thinking and it will never be ready by 2009.
    If ever built, it will not have any relevant impact in the tourist traffic to Natal because the existing airport, Augusto Severo Int. Airport, is excellent and operates only at 25% of its capacity.
     
  4. michaelbush

    michaelbush New Member

    I was speaking to a brasilian yesterday in Natal, and he says that now the world cup 2014 is coming to Brasil all the political groups are keen to get the airport constructed. He believes that they will now get the funding into place and that the new airport will be ready a year or two before the world cup in 2014. Guess it is wait and see. Most of these ambitious projects are politically driven, hence the speed up of work on the new bridge before elections last year!
     
  5. RalphJ

    RalphJ New Member

    a couple things are kind of funny to me because I see them ALL the time. All of these mid-size northeastern cities, whenever you see agents trying to sell them to gringos, you always see..."coming soon...international airport, flights direct from London, Barcelona, etc!" And the other is the ole "guaranteed rent" horse****. Ole Keifer Robins was a master at that.:eek:
     
  6. beenthere

    beenthere Guest


    Since you are a believer in the truth, please offer the proof that none of this will happen ????

    Also provide references as under-hype is just as bad as over-hype ....
     
  7. beenthere

    beenthere Guest

    Why don't you provide a source for the 25% figure?? It's funny that in another thread about flights someone quoted that the figure is totally different and there is a reference to a govt. site saying so, so please provide the proof.....
     
  8. JMBroad

    JMBroad New Member

    ::. INFRAERO - Aeroportos Brasileiros

    Maximum capacity for Natal airport = 1.5 million passengers

    January to September 2007 YTD figures: 1.156 million passengers

    January to September 2006: 1.039 million passengers

    Final Year end 2006: 1.391 million passengers

    Estimated Year end 2007 based on YTD performance: 1.547 million passengers
     
  9. RalphJ

    RalphJ New Member


    Huh? Please provide proof that none of this will happen? What kind of meds are you taking? I'm saying that I've seen this in NUMEROUS mid-size brazilian cities, their state and local politicians always coming out saying that..."soon we'll have international flights" and it just doesn't happen. They've been saying that here in Aracaju for 5 years now and we're not any closer to getting international flights than we were 5 years ago!

    I then commented about the "guaranteed rent" spiel. As most of us know that's nothing more than overpricing property and giving one back his own money.

    I absolutely didn't understand your question at all. Please provide proof that none of what will happen? It's kind of hard to provide proof of a negative, or that an event "won't" happen. "Please provide me proof that a man will never go to Mars....":confused:

    "beenthere"....what's your problem buddy?? Ya know, it's assholes like you that when I see groups of gringo's that got screwed, I think to myself, "well, some of them deserved it."
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2007
  10. JMBroad

    JMBroad New Member

    Just from looking at the official figures though, that's like comparing apples and oranges. Unless the official figures are wrong. Last year International arrivals in Natal were 18% of the total, international arrivals in Aracaju were exactly 0.0014% of the total. Natal arrivals were almost 1.4 million, Aracaju were under 600 thousand

    This time last year, 84 international passengers had landed in Aracaju. So far this year, 4(!?) have landed?

    This last figure leads me to believe that the official numbers from the government must be wrong. Either that or you don't use the airport much yourself.

    Either way, those 4 are hardly comparable to the 170.000 international passengers which have landed in Natal so far this year.

    Under that light, do you think that because it didn't happen in Aracaju, it won't happen in Natal? I mean, just reasonable doubt...
     
  11. JMBroad

    JMBroad New Member

    Oh and if you want an example of where it DID happen, go look at Recife. Airport couldn't cope, the new airport increased capacity from 1.5 to 5 mill and only three years after the new airport started operation, they have jumped from 1.5 to almost 4 million arrivals and they STILL have less international arrivals than Natal. (find my other post about it for more in-depth detail on numbers)
     
  12. RalphJ

    RalphJ New Member


    And Recife is a helluva different than Natal! It's the business capitol of the northeast along with Salvador. The problem here in Aracaju, along with other midsize cities, is hotel capacity. More hotels and resorts need to be built in these cities to acquire consistant international flights. I'm not saying it's not going to happen...the question is "when".
     
  13. JMBroad

    JMBroad New Member

    Which is what all the developments in the area will provide, hopefully.

    With regards to "when", your guess is as good as mine (probably better because you live out there and I don't ;)) however everything indicates that it will be relatively soon.
     
  14. Golfingworld

    Golfingworld New Member

    Wow....where did all you guys come from..the tide has finally turned..I agree with all the negative stuff...a lot of the selling points are bullxxxx. Just was UK BBC TV Watchdog all about how Polaris World screwed up people in Murcia..if they cant finish developments there they'll never do it in Brazil. It is absolutely true what these guys say and it seems they have properties and live there. All you people that have put money down should put real pressure on your developers and agents for answers and rebates..the world property market is in decline...the world economy is in trouble due to oil prices and credit squezzes....property in Spain has gone...your are right negative guys, they are 'aving a laugh when they make their claims...off plan concepts collapse when prices don't rise and they are not going to rise for 5 years in Europe!
     
  15. beenthere

    beenthere Guest

    Good to see you back golfxxxx, you must be happy to be with a bunch of guys who make sweeping statements and don't bother offering any proof for anything ....
     
  16. michaelbush

    michaelbush New Member

    Would be good to see some post from BT that actually says something other than slagging other people off. I am not negative at all on Brasil- I live here and love the life, I merely say what I think, and will not paint an untrue picture just for the sake of a commission. Polaris World certainly have screwed up in Murcia, but the Polaris World site in Maracajaú is not the same people as I understand. I believe they are Swedish, and they have problems with their licences. If PW have somewhere else here I have not heard of it. As for the market being "gone" in Spain, that is the investment off plan tourist holiday home market. The demand for the Spanish for property to live in is different, and investors who took my advice 3 years ago are still sitting on a sizeable profit which can be realised. There are good reasons for thsi which I can discuss with anyone interested. I still sell in Spain as well but not holiday homes!
     
  17. deedee1

    deedee1 New Member

    Hi all,

    Long time no speak to!!!

    YOU CANNOT EVEN COMPARE SOUTH AMERICA TO EUROPE - ITS LIKE CHALK AND CHEESE!

    As for sapin -it has been in decline for 2 years or more now but its only this year that people have openly admitted it to the public!!!!

    Spain has financially been in the red for 3 years, couple that with oversupply, underdemand and decrease in investments and tourism and bingo youve hit the jackpot in decline!!

    Brazil is staring to emerge therefore it cannot be in decline before its even emerged!!!!

    Brazil is A GROWING ECONOMY and will continue to do so for many years to come- IT DOES NOT HAVE THE SAME ISSUES AS SPAIN AT ALL!!!
    Or Europe for that matter especially were over inflation (in comparison to europe that is) and mass oversupply and underdemand!!!

    I am half spanish so I know what Im talking about "WHEN THE SPANISH STOP BUYING IN THEIR OWN MARKET- THEN YOU KNOW THERES A PROBLEM COMING"!!!

    Take care-D :)
     
  18. surfingbrazil

    surfingbrazil New Member

    Beenthere … have you ever been there?????????? I mean in Natal,s Augusto Severo International Airport.
    I said 25% operating capacity? Yes , indeed.
    I saw this figure in Tribuna do Norte , not long time ago.

    However, you do not need to be an expert in logistics and aviation to understand this.
    Any middle intelligent discerning traveler will see that: quiet, plenty of parking space, empty chairs and shops, one plane here and there once in a while… and hundred Ha. just by waiting for its expansion.

    There is absolutely no need for, neither budget approval for another airport and sellers are only mentioning this to talk up prices, making the pray think that a fantastic increase is around the corner.

    Well this was the aim of the post: to warn against stupidity, no to engage in stupid discussions about aviation data.
     
  19. Golfingworld

    Golfingworld New Member

    Off plan fantasies

    Wow this thread is a minefield and it reminds me of the good old days when it was only me banging on about wild claims for Brazil. What needs to happen is that the market needs help to grow and it needs to be stimulated. This means that developers and agents need to be lobbying the Govt for improved flight links, more flexibility for foreigners to get bank accounts and free up exhange control procedures. The truth is that most Agents just feed out the same old stuff in the hope that some fool will believe it. They used to but less now as the off plan bubble has burst. It is not true to say that Brazil is not like Spain/Portugal it will follow the same path as it opens up and the cultures are linked as are the style of doing things. I don't beleive that there will be an explosion in Brazilian purchasers and the stimulus will come from abroad...but only if people can get there, which they can't at present. So come on Agents, do your self a favour, show us your letters lobbying airlines and the tourist ministry.
     
  20. Investec

    Investec New Member

    No matter what SurfingBrazil does have a LOT of valid points,i also have good friends in Brazil who can confirm a few points brought up such as
    *Guaranteed rental income in many sales dont become a reality .
    *Violence is still very high in the agenda(do a search for examplo for MORRO DO ALEMAO )-and the government is not paying any attention to this no matter where.
    *Corruption is on a high level -government officials (14 in total ) from 3 major parties in Brazil (PP,PSDB & PMDB ) were arrested on the 08 11 07 ,again do a search on OPERACAO RODIN and all the details are there.
    Again no matter what all should exercise double caution like normal when purchasing a property overseas,if you use common sense that should be fine.
    PS :I am just giving my insight on the valid points brough up on this thread,nothing else,in the end of the day i am also interested in purchasing property in this country like your good selves
     
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