Foreign Investor and capital repatriation

Discussion in 'Brazil Property' started by anthonyasael, Jan 3, 2013.

  1. anthonyasael

    anthonyasael New Member

    Hello,

    Can someone give me the tax rules for a foreign (non Brazilian resident) investor into a Brazilian company in Brazil ?

    If the foreign investor invest in a local company and wants a couple of years later to repatriate his money ? How easy is it to do it ? What are the tax rules ?

    During his investments, the investor will receive also dividends from the Brazilian company. Are there any withholding taxes for those ?

    Please don't tell me to go the an accountant or to a lawyer ? I know that and it is what I will when the time will come. I would like to have your first opinion on it.

    On internet, I have read that there is a 0% taxes on dividend and 15% on capital gains. Is this still correct ?

    Thank you for your help and happy new year to all,

    Anthony
     
  2. Repatriation of your money is only possible if you transfered your money officialy via the Banco Central to Brasil AND if this money is registerd at the BACEN as foreign investment. (Investimento Estrangeiro Direto (IED).)
    Only then you are considered a foreign investor and will be able to get your money and dividends out of Brazil.

    The same case for foreign real estate owners.
    You must prove you have transferred your money (and changed it to R$s) to buy the property officially via the Brazilian Central Bank declaring also the reason you are transfering money to Brazil (specification of your house)
    That amount you can repatriate.

    If nothing of this.
    Only the illegal way, buying foreign money on the black market en crossing the border with the money in your suitcase, which is a crime
    Note: at the mayor airports they detect money, than its total loss.
     
  3. Note:
    You must register yourself as a foreigner investor at the Brazilian Central Bank -BACEN , RDE -Modulo IED, BEFORE you transfer your money as an investor to Brazil.

    "O registro é obrigatório e deve ser feito antes do primeiro ingresso de recursos no País."

    Foreign money in Brazil is like one-way-traffic.
    Easy to get it in, almost impossible to get it out.

    Someone told you that when you bought your property ?
     
  4. Simple, as I explained before.
    These funds are registered at the Central Bank.
    They can send billions to Brazil today, en take it out a day later. Ofcourse after paying their taxes, IOF etc.

    Small Real Estate investors can repatriate their money only if came in Brazil the official way, this sending it from abroad vai the Central Bank to a local bank account. Then its no problem.
    On receiving you sign the "Contrato de Cambio" at your local Brazilian bank, declare what the money is for - investing in an "imóvel, situated in...., adress.... etc" and the Centrl Bank will liberate your money.
    When you send your money back after a while, the transaction will be authorized by the BACEN again, they check it and the wire it to a foreign bank account.

    No local bank, local bank manager, is able to send money DIRECTLY out of Brazil.

    Read the BACEN instruction about foreing investments.

    And don't forget, after receiving the money in Brazil and buying (or not) property in Brazil the foreign investor MUST declare anualy tax, = filling the COMPLETE income tax form, wether declaring he still owns the money or real estate.
    Yes he MUST declare, he MUST have a CPF.
    From the first year on.
    If you don't do it the first year, the lost over your capital can be 50% or more (tax evasion, taxes to pay, fines).
    You don't need to lie to the taxman, THE first time you declare your money or property its taxfree.
     
  5. debzor

    debzor New Member

    Hi

    I have been to Belgium many times, Mr C, and I can understand completely your frustrations.

    However I think you must understand that some of us are licensed, experienced professionals in Brazil (although not all, perhaps), we know what we are doing, and are quite capable of advising people of the safe and correct way of doing things.

    But thank you for your input and advice.
     
  6. Sorry, my information was wrong, I'm from Belgium, but live since 1977 in Brazil.
    I changed the flag to BR.
    Came here with my parents when I was 18 years old.
    Have both nationalities.
    Work as engineer in the heavy industry (multi).
    I'm not frustrated at all, but hope I can avoid near future frustration from other investors.
    I know about repatriating money out of Brazil, I know the BACEN rules.
    I know tax rules and the existing laws in Brazil, also for foreigners.
    In all these years I did my own private investments in Brazil.
    And I have seen expat collegues doing it.
    There is no such real estate "Boom" in Brazil anymore.
    Not here not in the North East. Prices have got over the top, and will go down now. Maybe very dramaticly as I have seen before in Brazil.
    We have no doubt about that.
    Big foreign investors are taking their money out of brazil since last year.
    Things probably will collapse, as always. It was all a dream (again).
    What goes up must come down.

    I hope to be usefull with my 36 years Brazil experience.
    I dont make a living of real estate housing deals. So there is no conflict in giving my honest opinions.

    What I have written about money repatriation, are the FACTS.
    If you like it or not, the truth sometimes hurts.
     
  7. There is not so much written about this, I found this:

    That was the end of the topic.
    You think that is "Understandable": "as these things are complicated and specific to each individual"

    http://www.propertyforum.com/forum/brazil-property/20985-sending-money-out-brazil.html

    :D
     
  8. debzor

    debzor New Member


    Sorry, what do you not understand about this statement? I have reread it many times, and it makes perfect sense to me - taking money in and out of Brazil is complicated and specific to each individual. There are many variables to a planned investment, and it is not a 'one size fits all' type of answer.

    It is perfectly possible to take money out of Brazil, and there are many ways to do this both legally and illegally. I do not recommend the latter, but just because you do not know how to do it legally, that does not mean it is not possible.

    I know many people who have achieved this (quite legally), but as all you seem intent in doing is knocking anything Brazilian, I am not going to tell you how. It would be better for you to go and figure it out for yourself (as we all have had to do)... then you might accept it.

    Strangely my neighbour is a judge as well, and she specialised in all things to do with foreigners and also lectures in the subject at a top university.
     
  9. Aiaiai.
    You guys realy think you are the only ones that have some poor basic knowledge.
    Why figuring out something that everone knows in Brazil. ?
    Especialy those who were here when inflation hit 85% / month.
    One would be very stupid to put openly on the internet how to f.ck-up the law.

    Ask your "neighbour" the meaning of "Apologia ao Crime".

    "but as all you seem intent in doing is knocking anything Brazilian" = ???????
    Just because I say that the Brazilian "Boom" dream is over (once again).
    That the economy is collapsing ?

    You "real-estate agents" (??) are the only ones that ignores the economic daily bad news facts. Because you are (trying) to survive here selling dreams.

    :D
     
  10. debzor

    debzor New Member

    I think we should just agree to disagree...

    You go bury your head in the sand, and wait for the Brazilian storm to pass, and I and my colleagues will continue to invest wisely.

    We will make an excellent profit, you will get sand in your ears..!!
     
  11. My posts of yesterday disappeared mysteriously.
    Probably because the truth hurts (some of you).
    It was just a basic example of what is “profit” for you guys.

    Your friend is selling apartments for already 5.1/2 years in Pipa.
    Sept. 2007 the price for a 1 bedroom app. was R$ 179.400.
    Today he is asking £58,000 = R$ 180.000 for the same apartment, STILL.
    Where is the inflation during this period ? Some 30-35% or more.
    The price has stayed exactly stable. But …. He is still not able to sell after already 5.1/2 years.
    So, no doubt, these apartments are overvalued.
    If one needs to sell today, maybe (with some luck) R$ 150.000 will do.
    But in these 5.1/2 years the owner/investor had his costs. Paperwork, fees, taxes, iptu, maintenance, “condominium” etc. Let’s say at least some R$ 30.000 (I think it must have been a lot more).

    So after selling he can put some R$ 120.000 liquid in his pocket.

    Now the one who didn’t buy, but has put his money on a Brazilian bank in sept. 2007.

    Today, jan. 2013 he will have AT LEAST R$ 250.000 on his bank account.

    And it keeps growing at least 6-7% a year.
    He owns today, after 5.1/2 years, 108% MORE than the investor.
    And he will keep on earning money, his capital will grow.
    Don’t come with stories about rental profits.
    It will take this apartment investor 30 or 40 years to win the race against the bank.

    Is this, buying apartments like this, clever and smart investing ?
    Is this, buying property like this, making excellent profits ?

    Just the fact of deleting a post like this shows what’s going on.
    Who is burying his head in the sand, who has sand in his ears ?

    Maybe (probably not) you have ever heard of former finance minister Rubens Ricupero.
    During an interview, some 18 years ago, he said:” O que é bom a gente fatura, o que é ruim a gente esconde.”
    This means: “With good news we make profit, bad news we hide”.
    The problem was, he thought the interview hadn’t started yet and the cameras and mic’s still on off. That wasn’t so, the whole country could see and hear him saying it.

    Is that your style ?
    Should all the posts here follow this rule ?
    And if it doesn't follow the rule, should it be deleted ?
    Where are the ethics ?

    I’m not the investor you like to see.
    I’m just an engineer helping to find the presalt oil you are all talking about so much (without knowing what it means) and think it will make you rich and happy one day, another dream.
    Brazil isn’t a bed of roses anymore:

    2012: Capital Economics says “Brazil property market is overvalued by 50%”
     
  12. dhoskings

    dhoskings New Member

    welcome to the forum.

    It's been a long time since someone has been on this forum creating havoc.

    I have been reading your posts and they look interesting, but I have a few problems with your character.

    First of all you have made many refernces to the Brazilian government being corrupt, so taking that statement to it's logical conclusion there is likely that your wife who is a judge is probably taking bribes, which you would have benefitted from. Bad Boy

    what about your job: it seems that you are lying to your employers as I doubt they would hire someone and then keep someone in their employ who opening says what they are doing is not going to work.

    By your attitude I imagine you are one of those people that would even sabotage his work to ensure that he was right all along.

    btw i know a lot about pre-salt oil, and it is going to work as one of the two truely top notch firms in Brazil is Petrobras.

    keep going, at least you are entertaining me.
     
  13. Where did I say, mention, what post, that "the Brazilian government being corrupt" ?
    I didn't, but I agree with it.
    Everybody agrees with that.
    The last years corruption got endemic, open, "sem vergonha".

    A very VERY simple conclusion.

    Thats something typical, one has no arguments and attacks the writer.
    You must be the kind of person when running out of arguments starts to shout.
    If the doctor tells you you have cancer, you blame him and starts to hate him.

    Were did I wrote my boss is doing wrong ? What post ?
    No they are happy with me and "vice-versa".
    Talking about lying.

    Poor you, Mr. dhoskings !
    I suppose my earlier post(s) was as pepper on your open investors wounds.
    Attack with arguments my posts, pls.
    Don't act as a child.
     
  14. dhoskings

    dhoskings New Member

    You seem to think everyone else lies and that it is ok to call everyone a liar, but how come when I say the same thing about you that you get angry?

    maybe it is becuase what I say is true :D
     
  15. Who I called a LIAR ?
    Where ?
    Why I should lie here, I'm not selling.
    Where, what post proves I'm lying to my company, call Brazilan politician corrupt (agree with that).

    So once again, if someone has an opinion different than yours, numbers, FACS, you don't want to hear, you start calling him a lier, his wife corrupt, put in doubt his character, say I'm able to sabotage my job and so on.
    You're not able to discuss normally.
    What is YOUR frustration ? How much $$ you have lost ?

    Not me, but you look upset to me.
    You are running out of DP. :D
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2013
  16. dhoskings

    dhoskings New Member

    Did you read these stories, I hope you read the documents to do with your engineering job better than you read these stories?

    They say that Petrobras' cashflow is going to go negative because they are investing a huge amount of money in pre-salt.

    i suppose for someone like you everything is bad, so if the story is positive it is a lie and only if it is negative is it ok.

    That is really sad :s:
     
  17. dhoskings

    dhoskings New Member

  18. debzor

    debzor New Member

  19. Reading old topics in this forum is amusing.
    Till 2-3 years ago, you guys loved to post links here to articles of sites like The Economist, Financial Times, NYT and so on.
    Brazil this or that, big booms, economy getting sky high, all perfect news
    for your selling business.
    But this kind of good news dried up. The Brazilian dream is over.
    The only (fake) good news now are articles produced by yourselves or colleague real estate agents.

    Like this one.
    It’s the site of <snip>A guy like you, who came to Brazil a few years ago, trying to make a living as a real estate guru.
    He has small office at Cavaleiros / Macae.
    What kind of knowledge of Brazil can you expect?
    What kind of honest information can you expect from a seller?
    All his articles, he presents as if they are his articles or studies, written by him.
    They are all copied from other sites, without mentioning the sourse (also real estate sellers sites, mostly).
    But just insignificant pre-fab news, just for his / your interests as sellers.

    I think the last thing a REAL INVESTOR should believe in is the euphoric stories of the sales man. If it's a fridge, a car or real estate.

    That’s why I wonder why, now things are getting bad in Brazil, the bubble can burst any moment, we should not rely on economical magazines and newspapers any more, like a few years ago ?
    Now they are lying.
    Real good economical news about Brazil has dried up, it's hard to find.
    The actual news about Brazil, better shut up and hide it.
    Your show must go on.
    Returning to the word ethics.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 29, 2013
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