Saidia (The Greens) rental incomes and occupancy

[Doylie]

Hi there

We are trying to assess with the two properties we purchased through Azur (AZD Morocco) in Saidia (The Greens) will ever actually make any money. We paid the 30% deposit on them, but of course with the inflated VAT and exchange rate that have in theory gone up in price by around 25%

We have had some estimates from someone in the know but I want to get a feel from what anyone else is thinking will be weekly rental will be and what will be the number of weeks we could expect it to be occupied. All guesses of course!!

Thanks

Andy

 

[SaidiaSpy]

Doylie, you need to consider a few factors that are general and some that are specific to your plot:

1) Consider the maturity of the development (i.e. grounds, unsnagged properties, other unknowns because it is new, etc.) How long before it is really lettable? Getting snags fixed in Morocco takes ages. Is your water and electricity account set up?
2) Consider the extreme location of the plot compared to other plots offering self-catering that are closer to the action. When last did you see the plot and its surroundings? Only a greedy, foolish mug would buy property in a foreign country without regularly visiting it.
3) The resort is still very much in its infancy and 90% of visitors come over 2 months in Summer.
4) There's a global recession on.

Now, answer yourself this: why would people want to stay in your property where it is located?

Not being rude or denigrating here, just asking the business case.

Have AZD proven that an experienced player working off a massive database will bring in the paying punters that were promised all those years ago?

Unless someone can conjour up masses of people that can come all year round, then your pickings over the peak Summer season will be slim, sorry to say. But it's the truth and you heard it here first.

In your position I would say that all is not lost. You have some options:

1) If AZD promised x% a year in the contract, then hold them to it.
2) See if AZD have landed a big player who can bring in the footfall.
3) If you still believe in the potential of the resort, then hold on and wait it out. The only way you can do this is have property pay for itself. Short-term lets is unlikely to do this (unless you get the developer to cough up x% that covers your costs).
4) Try and find a buyer. (Not blinking likely in this economic environment.)
5) I think this is your best bet: Let it out on a long-term rental basis if you can.

Not a pretty picture, but its not all doom and gloom.

SaidiaSpy

 

[Doylie]

Thanks for the reply on that. I (and many others) are possibly feeling like greedy foolish mugs at the moment.

What your sayiong exactly coinsides with another person in the know. Dreadful situation.

 

[SaidiaSpy]

Would anybody buy a property in the UK without seeing it?

Why have so many people done exactly that - not see it for themselves in Morocco?

Why do people, who would spend months researching a gadget, spend years of hard-earned income speculating in property abroad - without doing their homework?

Are you enjoying your medicine?

Good.

You're going to get another dose soon.

SaidiaSpy

 

[Doylie]

People buy properties off plot. Its is usually cheaper that way. In this country and abroad.

Speaking for myself we did go out there, looked at the show homes, literature, etc before purchasing. We also did speak to others who purchased and had people who dealt in property in Morocco. So it wasn't just a blind purchase. But it has gone wrong due to unforeseen global things happening, and in my opinion the developers have been far less than honest with clients as far as information goes, and people have lost faith and trust in them.

You sound like your loving it other peoples pain amd misery, which I think, well, sad to be honest. And statements like "are you enjoying your medicine" sounds like you are 12 years old. This forum is for grown ups to discuss things I thought...

 

[SaidiaSpy]

Doylie, I take no pleasure from people suffering.

However, sometimes it is necessary to suffer - we learn more from our defeats than from our victories.

Buying off-plan comes with a discount because there is a risk premium involved. Due diligence is required to weigh up whether or not the risks involved will be rewarded by potential returns.

Talking to other like-minded people does not constitute due diligence. Reading 'literature' is not due diligence. Looking at a show home (that did not belong to Azur) is not due diligence. Talking to sales people - who are now nowhere to be seen - is not due diligence.

Due diligence is, amongst other things, ascertaining whether the developers promises can be fulfilled. For example, how many of the developers involved in Saidia had any history of delivering their product in Morocco? Some of them had never even built anything anywhere (and they still haven't). Did you look around the region near the resort and identify anywhere that had the same quality that you were promised (chose to believe)? Where was the future cash flow going to come from that would provide the necessary returns?

Was "faith and trust" well placed?

The truth is that the developers, in the midst of a bubble market fuelled by greedy novices, simply told people what they wanted to hear, usually that they would make "much profit". They pandered to people's greed and people went along with them because it is what they wanted to hear.

Over the years I have met many "investors" who have bought in Saidia (and Morocco generally). Many are greedy speculators whose desire to 'flip' came acropper when the market turned. There is only a small percentage of buyers who have a long-term time horizon for their investment in Saidia. They have no need to frequent forums such as this.

I regularly meet people who profess their dissatisfaction with the state of affairs in Saidia. But given that their only expectation was to make a quick buck, anything other than a quick killing was not of interest to them. Now they have to wait and they don't like it.

Going forward, all the speculators will sell as soon as any buyers appear. This overhang will take some time to clear. These specualtors will hold out to make their money back - the 'break-even' mentatlity so prevalent in financial markets.

These speculators will retreat to lick their wounds and nurse their dented egos. After all, if things turned out as they believed it would, they would stand around beating their chests with pride as their inflated egos drove them on to believe that they are financial geniuses. They would tell all who would listen about how clever they were.

But it didn't work out that way. And now they are looking for someone to blame.

Of course it is ALL the developer's fault and the financial crisis was the root cause of their unbeatable plan not working. The buyer was an unwilling, reluctant victim.

The greedy foolish mugs will be the first to sell. Only after they have left will prices rise. It is usually the later buyers on a resort who make the highest return in the shortest time. The first buyers run out of patience and become disillusioned because progress is slow. Marbella, Vilamoura, Puerto Banus, etc. were not immediate successes. The greedy foolish mugs, if their egos survive the medicine, stumble from one sure thing to another. Then one day, say 20 years, they look back at that 'flip' that went wrong in Morocco and say to themselves "Perhaps I should have held on".

Doylie (and others like you) will your ego allow you to take any of the above on board?

Do keep us all posted as to how your "investment" turns out.

SaidiaSpy

 

[Mr Ri]

Is this a balanced perspective?

SaidiaSpy.

While I value your general contribution to this forum, I do not think this latest view provides a balanced perspective.

It is only a small percentage of buyers who are greedy investors looking for short-term profit taking. Many more are people looking for a second home, or part second home part rental opportunity. These people bought in good faith and expect to receive a reasonable product for their money. Maybe some are naive but most are educated, seasoned business people who have been successful in their careers so they can make such an investment. The risk that has entered this development is the collapse of the financial markets (and economic downturn) was unforeseen by many a greater mind than the Saidia buyers.

I believe that the majority of the developers set out with honourable intentions. Some were inexperienced, you're correct, but Fadesa were highly experienced and look at whats happened to them. In many ways Fadesa's behaviour has been at the heart of many of the negatives surrounding the resort.

AZD are possibly the least experienced, but seem to at least made some recent progress and appear to be delivering a decent'ish' product.

So all in, I don't really agree with your assessment of the majority of the buyers, or the due diligence issues. We're all entitled to an opinion.

 

[SaidiaSpy]

Mr Ri, you can sit in North Carolina and pontificate on the theoretical make-up of buyers on the resort as much as you want. You haven't been on the resort in almost 2 years.

I have met the vast majority of buyers on the resort, across all the developers. I would say that 90% on Azur are speculators. Mr Ri, you have your own Azur reserved property for sale on your website, do you not? You haven't even completed yet and you've been looking to sell for almost a year. Your namby-pamby hype does not sway me.

On the GFM plots the vast majority of foreigners who bought were looking for a quick profit. The same is true of Azur buyers - Yes, I know you. Mr Ri, I paid more for my property than you did.

How many foreign buyers reading this know how to say "Thank You" in Arabic? What is the local dialect called? You don't know and you don't care because all you wanted was a fast buck. You had no interest in Morocco or anything Moroccan. You all have short-term expectations. This is evident in the anxiety in your forum posts, phone calls and emails. You may as well have been buying plots under the sea or on the moon. As long as you could afford it and the saleman promised "much profit" you slipped your brain in to neutral and absolved yourself of responsibility.

However, speculators are a necessary evil in the capitalist system. I'm just trying to lend a sense of alternative perspective on what was going on, in the now seemingly vain hope that people might have learned something from their daliance.

The Moroccan buyers have the right idea - slowly getting rich. As for GFM, one day when we meet I will tell you the truth about Fadesa in Morocco, until then you'll have to believe the sanitised version...or whatever you want to believe. After all, why should facts interfere with lofty flights of fancy? Did anybody pre-2008 make the effort to research the then hundreds of court cases against Fadesa in Spain?

The least most experienced property developers in Saidia are Property Logic - not Azur. Property Logic are three guys who met at a golf club in Marbella. None of them had experience in property development. I kid you not. They are the biggest underperformers on the resort. I hate GFM - but they have given people something for their money. Oasis? Tasa? Blue Pearl? Property Logic?

Azur had some experience of property development, but on a much smaller scale. I had my doubts about them, but they have soldiered on. Their first properties are being signed for this month.

Here's a little bit of good news for people who rely on anonymous postings on forums to guide their investment decisions: the Azur properties internally are good, really good - the best on the resort so far. The spec that is being delivered should be considered a minor achievement. The only long-term problem (that I'm currently aware of) with the AZD plots is their location. With years to come, as the resort develops, they will eventually become slightly more central.

In case anyone is wondering, I'm not involved with Azur (AZD) in any way. What I am is a fan of their determination and ability to have delivered something (albeit small) whilst all the other developers sat on their hands. Where has all the deposit money gone, people? Have you seen a recent copy of an escrow account? Helloooo...anybody awake?

There's a Moroccan developer called Bijoux who started work last February. They are nearing completion and their plot looks (externally) of a good standard. How is it that hey have managed to keep building and equipping over the last 18 months?

As for the economic crisis being at the root of it all... I say "twaddle".

There were major problems before funding dried up. Some of the developers lost their funding before the downturn because the banks had decided they no longer presented a viable, credible business case. The reasons for this varied by developer. As an example, one was having massive cost overruns that rendered the project unviable. Much easier to dust that under the carpet labelled "The Economic Crisis", heh?

Would this exact state of affairs be prevailing had the truth about American banks raping the financial system not come to light? No of course not. But would everybody be home and dry sitting on millions? Sunning themselves with a g&t in hand after a hard day on the golf course? Also, no.

I propose that the financial crisis actually rescued some of the developers because they were in no position to proceed with building. It has provided them with a much-needed excuse.

They were out of their depth in Morocco and had hit problems which (in some cases) they have still not solved now. Some of them opted to close up shop and file for bankruptcy. You should meet the Spanish people who bought from Tasa - a lynch-mob if I ever saw one.

Now, pay attention good people - if Azur (AZD) and Bijoux have been able to press on and deliver, why have the other developers not been able to do likewise? Anybody getting it?

SaidiaSpy

 

[Mr Ri]

I think you're leaping to conclusions. I'm not selling my property. I'm advertising some properties for sale for other buyers who have asked for help.

Namby-pamby hype ? I don't understand where you draw this conclusion.

Beware your ego does not consume you!:erp:

 

[adaandcourtenay]

The greens morocco

please can anyone get in contact if they originally purchased their property from saffron villas in regard to guaranteed rental promised

 

[pete e]

the greens

please can anyone get in contact if they originally purchased their property from saffron villas in regard to guaranteed rental promised

yes we did thru saffron back in 2006,went out their to view in november 2006, e mail is best. deleted email address

 

[pete e]

yes we did back in 2006,through saffron villas,went and viewed what was a few sticks in the ground.promised rental,but that has not materialised as per contract e mail deleted email address

 

[adaandcourtenay]

Saffron Villas

yes we did back in 2006,through saffron villas,went and viewed what was a few sticks in the ground.promised rental,but that has not materialised as per contract e mail deleted email address

Thanks for getting back to us, Saffron Villas are not responding to any of our emails. jane newquay at google mail dot com lots more to talk about, hope to hear from you soon.

 

[pete e]

the greens

Thanks for getting back to us, Saffron Villas are not responding to any of our emails. jane newquay at google mail dot com lots more to talk about, hope to hear from you soon.

yes have lots to talk about,but soon please.P