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Is it difficult to repatriate rents/profits?

Discussion in 'Brazil Property' started by robh, Jun 2, 2008.

  1. robh

    robh Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    GW,

    SInce when is it difficult to repatriate rents/profits?

    Oh and just because I don't comment on the other stuff you are saying in this post doesn't mean I agree with what you are saying. :)
     
  2. Golfingworld

    Golfingworld New Member

    SInce when is it difficult to repatriate rents/profits?

    So if you own a property in Spain or anywhere in Europe or The US, Australia, ZA the first thing you can do is open a bank account..you cannot do that in Brazil without residence. That's the first hurdle. Likewise, if you rent and are not resident you have to use a third party agent or administrator ....who do not work for free. Then all external transfers have to go through the Bank of Brazil at their chosen rates. I also beleive that you need to prove that adequate funds in Forex were imported in the first place. This is before Lawyers and accountants get involved. How can you not say that Brazil is financially complex for foreigners....it is extremely difficult and awkward. Yet another illustration as to how an Agent is in denial as to the reality of doing business in Brazil and delude themself.
     
  3. robh

    robh Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    GW,

    The only person deluding themselves is you which is pretty obvious when you can't have a conversation without creating your usual fictions and insulting people. I own a company in Brazil, a property and have helped numerous clients buy property and manage rentals there so I am more aware than you will ever be on the complexities of doing business in Brazil.

    For the sake of others lets go over your points.

    1. You cannot open a bank account in Brazil easily unless you have a visa or have a company there. Therefore you need a rental management agency to collect the rent for you. So if you weren't resident in Brazil you would not be there all the time, so how would you manage your rental property? You could find someone local willing to collect the money for you in cash and hang on to it for you until you visit, but this also raises issues like paying the bills and maintenance, etc., so it is easier to hire a letting agency to do it for you. This is pretty normal practice in most countries .....

    2. Good luck opening an account as a foreigner in any of Europe, USA, Australia and having money deposited into it locally on a regular basis without getting the attention of the authorities (which means tax). You seem to also not mention the rules and regulations of buying a property as a foreigner in Australia or a lot of European countries, Brazil is a lot easier plus you get 100% freehold.

    I have never done any business in South Africa so I won't even comment on ZA, but from what I have read, I don't think the authorities wouldn't even know you had bought a property there let alone rented it to someone.

    3. There are quite a few ways to transfer money out of Brazil, not just the central bank. I wouldn't try it with the money from a property sale, but for rental income there won't be a problem. Only a few days ago someone posted a link here about how they have loosened up foreign exchange below a certain amount.

    4. I don't know where you get the idea that you have to have bought money into Brazil to get it out without problems when talking about rental income. It is rental income, so you should declare it as such and pay your tax in Brazil (16%) which you can get credits for in most countries.
     
  4. RalphJ

    RalphJ New Member


    I'd be interested in knowing what those "other ways" to transfer money outside of brazil without going through banco central are. The only methods that I'm aware of are either Western Union, which is sent through Banco do Brasil, and one MUST have an account at Banco do Brasil to do this, and the WU's are registered with banco central, and bankwires (SWIFT), which naturally are subject to the conditions of banco central and are also registered in their system.

    Brasil also has "moneygram" and "swiftpay", but one can only receive internationally, not send. And with moneygram one must have an account at banco Itau. Brasil was the last country on the planet that had western union yet did not allow people to send international WU's. They changed this policy approximately 4 years ago.

    Brasil is, and always has been since I've lived here, scared to death of capitol flight. Banco Central keeps control of all monies that enter and leave this country. When sending small amounts of money outside of Brazil, less than $3,000 U.S., one can send a Western Union, but once again, this must be done by an account holder of Banco do Brasil.
     
  5. robh

    robh Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    Try rendimento for a start.

    Since the economy is booming I don't think they are worried about capital flight any more either, if anything capital flight would bring down the exchange rate.
     
  6. robh

    robh Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    Also whilst I know there are a few different ways of moving money in and out, I would say that the central bank must at least be aware of the movement (just like the central banks in most countries), but you don't need to use BdB for the exchange itself.
     
  7. RalphJ

    RalphJ New Member



    Rendimento??? What is this??? And why try this for a start?? What methods do you know of to send/receive money internationally that doesn't use Banco Central as the intermediary?? The word rendimento means "revenue". And "booming" economy, lol. Brazil may be "booming" of late, but we're talking growth rates of 4-5%. In the last 5 years only Haiti has grown at a slower rate than Brazil in Latin America and the carribean.

    I'll give everyone a clue.....there isn't any. Even transfast, when receiving in Brazil requires the sender to include the receivers CPF number.....guess why? Because the transfer is registered with Banco Central and if over 10,000 reais then one has to personally appear at the receiving bank with justification.


    I'll say this, my fiancé received a western union last Friday for $900 U.S. and has been trying since then to get it liquidated....until now she has not suceeded.


    For anyone to compare the ease in sending and receiving money internationally from/to Brazil to sending/receiving to/from Europe or North America, once again, there is no comparison. And I've had a brazilian business for a decade, have a permanent visa, have children that are brazilian and have made literally hundreds of transfers, from small, to large, to my company as well as personal account.
     
  8. robh

    robh Administrator Staff Member Premium Member


    If you were nice I would have given you the details of a perfectly legal way to transfer any amount of money which is properly registered with the central bank and would have saved your clients a load of money because of better exchange rates. This isn't some great secret, it is used by a lot of developers so I am surprised that you with your vast amount of experience doesn't know it.
     
  9. RalphJ

    RalphJ New Member



    That was you that made that quote wasn't it? First of all I'll let you in on a little secret.... banco central is NOT a bank!!:D It doesn't have tellers nor an exchange or "cambio".

    Banco Central of Brasil is like the Federal Reserve in the United States, they set the rules and laws that banks must abide by here in Brazil. One couldn't send or recieve money at Banco Central if he tried. I've been to banco central in both Salvador and Recife and have friends that work at both locations that I can and do phone directly whenever I need something. If you have a Brazilian business making a foreign investment in Brazil than you should've gone as well, to register your business and have access to your business online in banco centrals system.....it's called SISBACEN. And you and any partners need to have what is called RDE numbers that are provided to each partner by banco central.....not RNE(registro nacional estrangeiro), that is different. I know of all the methods that exist in Brazil to send/receive money to/from Brazil and there isn't ONE in existance where money is sent or received and the transfer is not registered with Banco Central and the rules of banco central are not applied.

    Sending/receiving money to/from Brazil is anything but seemless and/or automated. The recipient or sender of funds internationally plays an active role in finding, liquidating, and justifying transfers both sent and received. It's not like the states or Europe where someone can send you a bankwire and the money just appears in your account....with the exception of small transfers for those that use transfast, and this has just happened within the last 18 months, and once again, for small transfers. It's even more time consuming and bureucratic if one banks at a bank that doesn't have it's own cambio or exchange, in which there are numerous. This requires much footwork on the part of the receiver and in some instances if trying to send internationally from a bank that does not have a cambio it's not even possible.
     
  10. Seanlord

    Seanlord New Member

    ROB that is a total cop out. The guy challenged you to provide the info.If you know something,(which i now doubt) lets hear it and dont hide behind an immature " i know but i'm not telling you" attitude.
     
  11. robh

    robh Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    It isn't a total cop out at all, if Ralph was polite I would have willingly given him the info.

    But he wasn't and he is a competitor so he can work it out for himself.
     
  12. robh

    robh Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    Sorry that mention of banco central should have been BdB.
     
  13. Golfingworld

    Golfingworld New Member

    I am glad Ralph hasn't worked it out Rob as with your judgement call as to how simple and easy Brazil is to remit funds, at least he is on a firm footing by realising the difficulties.

    This is a classic case of dillusion by an Agent, you don't need major commercial or economic skill to realise that Brazil is complex, outdated and laborious when it comes to financial matters. To claim it is as easy as anywhere else is just plain ridiculous.

    And the idea that a tourist buggy operator who can now take payment or hold funds in forex rather than reis and this will lower the brazilian exchange rate, is even more ridiculous. In the EU and US thousands of tourist operators are holding Forex daily as they are free to do so..is this why our exchange rates go up and down?

    I don't mind be castigated for being a nuisance on here, but when alleged property investment experts sprout such garbage is it any wonder that buyers are hard to find?
     
  14. debzor

    debzor New Member


    True, Rob, competitive edge should be guarded jealously. But if info exists that benefits the wider territory as a whole (eg a million square miles, or whatever!) then maybe it should be shared for the common good...?
     
  15. RalphJ

    RalphJ New Member


    Deb, I've been on the ground here for a decade. Work closely with the banks and have friends at banco central. There is NO method to send/receive internationally that doesn't have to abide by the rules/restrictions of banco central and also that is not registered with them. As I stated, the easiest way to RECEIVE small amounts of cash in Brazil is via Transfast, which is recorded with banco central but automatically appears in ones account without any footwork. Anything above 10,000 reais one has to physically appear at the bank to liquidate and justify in one form or another. To send from Brazil internationally there is only bankwire (SWIFT) and Western Union (limit $3,000 U.S.) and one has to have a banco do brasil account.
     
  16. FCZ

    FCZ New Member

    Guidelines

    Why you guys don’t open a thread for the CPF, money transfers, and taxes. And stick it somewhere (or the buying selling tips thread will do it?). For instance, starting with what takes to get a CPF, to register a property and pay the due taxes. Expats always have to do some footwork, in some countries are more difficult, some are easier than Brazil. I believe that to send/receive small amounts of money (up to US$ 3000) isn’t a big deal with a CPF. I have been away from Brazil for two years, and my HSBC branch to this for me (you sign a form and the bank take care, need CPF). For large amounts, property must have been registered (as any country, as far I’m aware). How much cost to register, comparatively with other countries? I believe these are municipal taxes, so the agent may answer that. For rental incomes, accounting offices usually take care, and they charge a minimum fee, especially for European standards. I’m not the one to thrown more confusion on this, but someone may take the lead (and burden), and post some definitive information, i.e., guidelines.
    This thread should be reserved for flights and, eventually, drinks… not the moderator though…:)
     
  17. robh

    robh Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

    Since my posts seem to be getting deleted by the moderator I am closing this thread as I don't see the point of being castigated but not being able to respond.
     
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