Brazilian Nightmare (2)

[joanandjay]

I am hoping to sell my house on a condominium shortly..and for me it will be the
end of a ' Nightmare ' It all began in 2005 and i have listed numerically the circumstances as to what occurred...up to the present time...

(1) Purchased 2 x houses on condominium in Aracaju through an Agent in UK
who registered his business in Scotland.
(2) When it came to getting my deeds from the builder...the builder says the
Agent hadn't sent the 10,000 reals to get the deeds in my name but he
didn't provide any evidence of this..so 10 of us brits took out a court case
on the builder...who then gave us the 'document' which allows us to get
out deeds individually saving us about 8,000 reals.
(3) When we challenged the Agent in the UK - we couldn't touch him because
he was a Director of a company in Scotland and their laws are different
You Cannot Take a Director of a Scottish Company to Court..so he got
away with about £60,000!!!!
(4) The builder was about 18 months late with the delivery...there was no
fitted kitchen or bathrooms as was promised by the Agent...and so we
entered another court case on the builder for late delivery!!! (still pending)

(5) Due to the fact that the Agent sent the monies over in his companies name
we have no record showing that the money was sent by us into Central
Bank in Brazil....and therefore will not be able to get this money out in our
names as we can't prove that we brought it in....

We bought the properties for £34,000 each....but paid for 'extras'
like extended lounges and balconies...

I paid out a total of £76,000 for both houses....and have spent a
further £2,000 each on putting in fitted kitchen, ceilings, and landscaping
the gardens....

I have just been offered for one of the houses 105,000 reals...which iam
taking just to hurry up and get out of there...I think i will have lost about
£10,000 on each house....

So, my question is when the purchaser (hopefully) gets to the point of
buying my house....WHAT IS MY BEST WAY OF GETTING IT BACK TO THE UK??

joan

 

[JMBroad]

Hi Joan and thanks for sharing - unfortunately we only created the "Absolute Basics Start Here" thread earlier this year however as you can see everything that happened to you would have been covered here - not much use to you but hopefully will prevent similar things happening to other people so thanks for reinforcing how important this process is.

As to your problem of getting the money out of Brazil unfortunately there is no "quick and easy" solution so the absolute best advice I can think of is to speak to a lawyer in Brazil who will advise you on your options.

Given the history of what has happened to you the solution will have to be quite creative so will need to be discussed with your lawyer directly.

I've taken the liberty of merging both your posts together.

 

[MarceloRuiz]

Hi Joan, you will need to pay the income tax and then repatriate the money. Please let me know if you require any assistance. I am currently based in Brazil.

 

[growler]

We also purchased a property 2 years ago without sending the money to Brazil. After reading various posts I was a little concerned about getting my money out in the future, some people said it was impossible, some people said it wasn't!

I recently changed accountants because my previous one didn't seem to know what he was doing. My new accountant seems much more "clued up" and when I discussed this with him he said there was "a problem".. the problem being I would have to pay CGT (which I expected anyway).

He said that providing I register the property for tax (which can be up to 5 yrs after purchase) then there shouldn't be a problem with the money.

 

[joanandjay]

Transference of monies from Brazil

Hi Joan, you will need to pay the income tax and then repatriate the money. Please let me know if you require any assistance. I am currently based in Brazil.

Hi Marcelo

If there has been no record of my money going through the Central Bank of
Brazil - and if the purchaser of my property wants to send the money out
of Brazil - who in fact is responsible for the taxes....should the purchaser pay
the taxes...or am i expected to out of the price he has paid for the house?

Someone has told me that if the purchaser goes to his bank and wants to
transfer the money through his bank to my uk bank account...if they ask him
what this money is for and he tells them he has bought a house...then there
should not be any problem...

Do you have any idea as to what the percentage of taxes they charge?

Thank you for your reply

joan

 

[Fernandovich]

Quite a tricky storie, I´m sorry you find such a nasty Real Estate agency.
Ok, in normal conditions you must pay 15% of taxes in the moment of selling your house 15% of your benefits in Brazil Capital Gain Tax. The "good new" is that if you don´t have any benefit you shouldn´t pay any tax. Registry taxes is paid by buyer normally.

If you have the deeds of your property and some kind of contract signed by this company then I think one lawyer might help you and you will have little problems. In the deeds is stated the price you paid and with the signed contratct you can prove that the movement of money was done by a third. The money movement must be registered unless they carry the money in their pocket.

Take all this documents and call a lawyer in Natal.

 

[robh]

Quite a tricky storie, I´m sorry you find such a nasty Real Estate agency.
Ok, in normal conditions you must pay 15% of taxes in the moment of selling your house ( for countries with double taxation agreements) 15% of your benefits in Brazil. Unfortunately UK doesn´t have it, so you will pay probably around 24 % of the benefit. The "good new" is that if you don´t have any benefit you shouldn´t pay any tax. Registry taxes is paid by buyer normally.

If you have the deeds of your property and some kind of contract signed by this company then I think one lawyer might help you and you will have little problems. In the deeds is stated the price you paid and with the signed contratct you can prove that the movement of money was done by a third. The money movement must be registered unless they carry the money in their pocket.

Take all this documents and call a lawyer in Natal.

You won't get taxed twice in the UK as the Inland Revenue will give you tax credits.

Regards,
Rob.

 

[Fernandovich]

Well, 15% is in Brazil of course. And, correct me if I'm wrong, I think Tax credit rely only in your personal circumstances, I mean famliy, incomes etc.

Regards

 

[gerd]

hi joan,

I might be interested to rent (or even buy) your house in Aracaju. Where exactly is it located (name of condo, beach ) I lived in Aju for some time, presently in SC I think of moving back to the warmer northeast.
patecuco(arroba)gmailcom
gerd

 

[robh]

Well, 24% is in Brazil of course. And, correct me if I'm wrong, I think Tax credit rely only in your personal circumstances, I mean famliy, incomes etc.

Regards

Which taxes are 24%?

 

[gerd]

Do you have any idea as to what the percentage of taxes they charge?
joan

Hi Joan

are you just selling one of your two houses?

how about the other, is it for rent or to sell?

how can I get in contact with you

gerd

 

[Frank_London]

I totally agree with Robh and the tax issues.

 

[debzor]

I totally agree with Robh and the tax issues.

Mmm - I am a little surprised at the generic approach to taxes, as here in Brazil there is not one simple system.

Given that CTG is 15% on any GAIN from a primary property, this is quite separate from income tax, corporate tax, etc.

These can vary according to the method by which a company chooses to pay, the earnings of an individual, the (I think there is a choice of three) ways the employer decides to pay tax. Let alone the level of pay/profit, etc.

So there is no way to state a definitive level of tax for everyone, as there are so many variables.

 

[JMBroad]

No, but while CGT is 15% of gain for everyone I don't know of any tax which is 24% for everyone so in that respect Rob's question is a very valid one?

 

[joanandjay]

Brazilian nightmare

hi joan,

I might be interested to rent (or even buy) your house in Aracaju. Where exactly is it located (name of condo, beach ) I lived in Aju for some time, presently in SC I think of moving back to the warmer northeast.
patecuco(arroba)gmailcom
gerd

Hi there

If you are interested in a long term rental then i would be interested to
do that....at a very low rent...

The condominium name is Viva Vida on the road Rodovia Jose Sarney nr.
mosqueiro

Please get back to me as soon as possible if you are genuinely interested...

I have had someone put a deposit down on 1 house but the other one is
still available - how much are you thinking to pay to buy - i would be happy
for £125 per month rental - but you would have to pay the water and electric
and the condo fee....

thanks

joan

 

[joanandjay]

Brazilian nightmare

Quite a tricky storie, I´m sorry you find such a nasty Real Estate agency.
Ok, in normal conditions you must pay 15% of taxes in the moment of selling your house ( for countries with double taxation agreements) 15% of your benefits in Brazil. Unfortunately UK doesn´t have it, so you will pay probably around 24 % of the benefit. The "good new" is that if you don´t have any benefit you shouldn´t pay any tax. Registry taxes is paid by buyer normally.

If you have the deeds of your property and some kind of contract signed by this company then I think one lawyer might help you and you will have little problems. In the deeds is stated the price you paid and with the signed contratct you can prove that the movement of money was done by a third. The money movement must be registered unless they carry the money in their pocket.

Take all this documents and call a lawyer in Natal.

Hi there

thank you for all your help - I do have someone in Aracaju trying to tie up
all loose ends - i.e, getting the deeds put in my name and going to the
cartorio etc., a deposit has been put down on 1 house... i don't think i
shall pay any taxes as i am selling for less than i paid for the house!!!


So, it has been a disastrous investment for me....and i still have the other
house which someone on this forum says they may be interested to rent
so i shall have to wait and see what happens about that...

thanks
joan

 

[Fernandovich]

Capital Gain

Which taxes are 24%?

Robh is Right. Just made a mistake, I just talked by heart and I mixed it up with other corporate taxes. Capital Gain Tax is 15% flat rate for residents and non-residents.

Regards

 

[gerd]

Please get back to me as soon as possible if you are genuinely interested...

joan

Hi Joan,

Thanks for answering,

I live in Florianopolis and plan to move back to Aracaju as we (me,my wife +kids (7+1)) are not completely satisfied with the british weather in Santa Catarina.

That's why I am looking for a place in Aracaju (+ my wife is sergipana).

As our daughter is going to school in Floripa, we intend to move back to Sergipe
in 2010 either at the beginning of the school year 2010 or midterm.

I found the add about viva vida on www pepperestates. Which row and house nr is yours ? Do you know how many houses are permanently occupied and how many are 'veraneio'? What is the actual floor plan (ground and +1). Do you have fotos to show the interiour and exteriour?

The rent of 125 quit is no problem, consumption of el + water is always paid by the tenant. How much is the condominio fee?

I am actualy looking for a house to buy, if the house is big enough for my family of 4, but I will have to see it first of course. Your pricetag of 105000R$ is reasonable, and you get more or less what you paid for in quit, payment (for rent or purchase) could be effected in Euros as well.

Please contact me via email patecucoarrobagmaildotcom for further details.

My wife is traveling to Aju in Nov09 for her sisters acouchement, so we could have a look at the house.

If we decide to rent, we move to Aju in Feb/09 earliest. If we buy it can be any time that we can meet in Aju. We will probably build our own house in the next 2-5 years, but consider to live in a beach house for some time in between. Unfortuately the bridge to Caueira is still not completed, as I got a formidable offer for a house there.

Well that's it for today

Até logo
Gerd

 

[gerd]

joan

Do you have escritura publica or even matricula or is the house still owned by the contractor ?

 

[joanandjay]

House in aracaju

Do you have escritura publica or even matricula or is the house still owned by the contractor ?

Hi Gerd

Well to answer in as simple terms as possible...how my American friend is
dealing with the sale of my 1st house... is the couple are putting down a
deposit - he will then get the deeds put in my name & then sell to them...

What i have is a paper from the builder which allows me to get the deeds.
What the name of that paper is i have no idea.

The house is on a condominium with rows A - 0 and the house is row M
Because it has a veranda and more land - i am asking 120,000 reals for
it...it also comes fully furnished....3 x double bedrooms (1 of which is
situated downstairs)

If you send me your e-mail to [email protected] i will send you a
picture of the house.

If you are looking to rent the house - i really want it to be rented by
november I can't wait until 2010

regards
joan