Brazil: Hotspot Or Not..?????

[nigelallen]

Hi all,

Would like to know peoples views on whether brazil is becoming a property and investment HOTSPOT or NOT..???

Personally I think that brazil is fast becoming a property and investment hotspot- currently one of the fastest in the world!

With so much changing so quickly- with investments flooding in and massive infrastructure and development improvements that are being made!

With numerous luxury resorts and facilities being built in a tropical climate with paradise on your doorstep!

What do you think...????

Hello All, i am a new member just joined, thought i would give you my views of Brazil, Yes i think it is going to be a hot spot but im not sure about up in the Natal area, their is a lot of hype about capital appreciating at 20% to 30% and also hype about 20% return on rentals etc.. and as for companies offering guaranteed rental for 3 years, this is included in the price you pay, I think a lot of people are going to be stuck with a property after 3 years not generating an income.
Also i have heard some horror stories about property being sold and the developers don`t even own the land,
have no licences and people have lost deposits, I read an article about drugs money being laundered people being arrested, etc., Natal area is not for me im afraid.

Nigel

 

[deedee1]

Re: Natal!!!

Hi all,

NIGELALLEN- Problems with licences, land ownersship, crime happens all over the world this is nothing new!!
Land and permit issues always happen in countries abroad thats why you have to seek reputable, good advise from an independant lawyer- thats the whole point- to get to the nitty, gritty..!!

I think that Natal and fortaleza will become tourism hubbs in the future!

Fortaleza has the advantage of already being developed and established area which is being improved and expanded on!!
Whereas Natal is not as established- but has a long term government development and enlargement plan attached to it!!

"IF YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME"- I mean look at dubai, sahl hasheesh or cape verde for example- who would have thought!!! ALL DESSERTS but they made it happen-brazil is the complete opposite as it has so many attractions and natural beauty !!
so different to these places so why wont it happen or people come...?????

See ya D

 

[Golfingworld]

Nigel, you appeared out of the sky like my guardian angel! I have been pushing water up hill on here for a few weeks now. I agree enttirely with you, as if you hadn't guessed already! Current prices for new developments in Natal, even if being legally constructed, are way too high and indeed the guarantess are pre-budgeted and all they are doing is re-bating pre-paid discounts so as to achieve money up front to fund the developments. Plus if you see my Bank thread, there is no guarantee to how this can be paid to you. Likewise, all the management Company has to do is to put the business into liquidation and say "sorry, can't pay you anymore". So the word "guarantee" is being mis-used. Any deal is about how and when you get paid, unless payment is "guaranteed" the deal is not worth doing. Likewise, if these discounts were paid up front, then it might be a good deal.

 

[nigelallen]

Hi all,

NIGELALLEN- Problems with licences, land ownersship, crime happens all over the world this is nothing new!!
Land and permit issues always happen in countries abroad thats why you have to seek reputable, good advise from an independant lawyer- thats the whole point- to get to the nitty, gritty..!!

I think that Natal and fortaleza will become tourism hubbs in the future!

Fortaleza has the advantage of already being developed and established area which is being improved and expanded on!!
Whereas Natal is not as established- but has a long term government development and enlargement plan attached to it!!

"IF YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME"- I mean look at dubai, sahl hasheesh or cape verde for example- who would have thought!!! ALL DESSERTS but they made it happen-brazil is the complete opposite as it has so many attractions and natural beauty !!
so different to these places so why wont it happen or people come...?????

See ya D

Hi D

I hope that i am not being to negative about Natal area, and i really hope people investing their will make good profits, it is my opinion only, I have been to several areas in Brazil over the last 5 years a have a fair bit of experience, i also have a building company in Brazil, and when you say get good advice from an independent lawyer don't think because you have a lawyer everything will be fine, some of the lawyers in Brazil should not be practising, Doing anything in Brazil is hassle and expensive, believe me. all i am saying is that these developers are promising the world to get a sale, the poster Golfingworld has it right in all his questions about the difficulties off Brazil, i get the feel that because he comes out with negative post it upsets people, but people should take his points seriously and research.
he is right to question everything about development potential and claims of huge capital gains and rental returns,

I think that Brazil will be a hot spot,( IN TIME) but i like others on here question the claims of many developers
regarding C.G. and Rentals. lets start off with rentals, i believe that the most important thing about rental is the strength of the local rental potential, because any brazilian going on holiday goes to the beach,

We hear that the local population goes to Natal area for their vacations and this will boost the rental market, well i don't believe that, most people from San Paulo and Brasilia go to the State of Bahia for their holidays
why would the fly an extra 600 miles to Natal.

Any way, i do like the motto (Build it and they will come),I just hope your not living in a Field of Dreams, loll

 

[deedee1]

Re: Brazil!!

Hi all,

Nigel- The forum is based on different opinions and views-so dont take it personally it just peoples differences clashing thats all!!!

OK- 1st of all alot of property investors are aware of the situation in brazil so that are not going into this blindfolded and Im sure that many have also researched before investing!!!

The natal property boom is being fuellled by the ammount of government funding and investment that is being pumped into the area along with the speculation of the new airport being built and the talks of potential direct flights!
Natal has been targeted as the primary area in brazil to receive the most ammount of funding, support and development in the whole of brazil!!

I appreciate like Ive stated before that the market is very new and there are barriers to overcome and the new airport has issues attached to it at the moment aswell!!
The market is being hyped by agents and prices are rising sharply in brazil and capital growth is still yet to be seen and determined at a later date in the market !!

Resort properties are much more expensive - But you are BUYING INTO A RESORT !!
I could probably buy 2 big villas with pools on the beach in the middle of nowhere for the price Ive paid for a 2 bed apartment in grand natal!!
But I chose not to as I would rather pay the extra money to have the security and peace of mind of being on a resort that will have security and facilities available 24/7, property maintenance and able to manage my property for me whilst Im not there - which obviously comes at a price!!

This is my choice- in order to feel relaxed and at ease that my property is secure and looked after- instead of the hassle of having my 2 lonesome villas!!
Im sure also that this is the reason so many others buy into resorts at more expensive prices aswell- JUST FOR THE PEACE OF MIND!!!!

See ya -D

 

[robh]

Hi All,

To expand on the security aspect of buying overseas property; if you decide to buy a freestanding house outside of a resort or secured area be prepared to guard it.

You cannot just buy a place, kit it out with all the latest goods, then go away for 6 months. If you do this without ensuring security, you may well find that the contents of your house have disappeared. This doesn't apply to Brazil only as I have also seen this happen in Australia, France and Spain.

Regards,
Rob.

Hi all,

Nigel- The forum is based on different opinions and views-so dont take it personally it just peoples differences clashing thats all!!!

OK- 1st of all alot of property investors are aware of the situation in brazil so that are not going into this blindfolded and Im sure that many have also researched before investing!!!

The natal property boom is being fuellled by the ammount of government funding and investment that is being pumped into the area along with the speculation of the new airport being built and the talks of potential direct flights!
Natal has been targeted as the primary area in brazil to receive the most ammount of funding, support and development in the whole of brazil!!

I appreciate like Ive stated before that the market is very new and there are barriers to overcome and the new airport has issues attached to it at the moment aswell!!
The market is being hyped by agents and prices are rising sharply in brazil and capital growth is still yet to be seen and determined at a later date in the market !!

Resort properties are much more expensive - But you are BUYING INTO A RESORT !!
I could probably buy 2 big villas with pools on the beach in the middle of nowhere for the price Ive paid for a 2 bed apartment in grand natal!!
But I chose not to as I would rather pay the extra money to have the security and peace of mind of being on a resort that will have security and facilities available 24/7, property maintenance and able to manage my property for me whilst Im not there - which obviously comes at a price!!

This is my choice- in order to feel relaxed and at ease that my property is secure and looked after- instead of the hassle of having my 2 lonesome villas!!
Im sure also that this is the reason so many others buy into resorts at more expensive prices aswell- JUST FOR THE PEACE OF MIND!!!!

See ya -D

 

[nigelallen]

Hi All,

To expand on the security aspect of buying overseas property; if you decide to buy a freestanding house outside of a resort or secured area be prepared to guard it.

You cannot just buy a place, kit it out with all the latest goods, then go away for 6 months. If you do this without ensuring security, you may well find that the contents of your house have disappeared. This doesn't apply to Brazil only as I have also seen this happen in Australia, France and Spain.

Regards,
Rob.

Hi Rob,

I had a beachfront villa in the Salvador area for 4 year , i never ever had a problem , i paid a caretaker who looked after the house pool and gardens, at the grand cost of $R300 a month = £75 not much more than a condo charge , the house also cost far less than a price of a 2 bed Apartment being sold on some resorts.
a small price to pay for such luxery, you can also buy houses in secure gated comunities for anyone a bit nervous, anyone buying property not in a development should get a local to make the approach, as one sniff of a gringo and the price doubles.
cheers

 

[robh]

Hi Nigel,

I too have been to Brazil quite a few times and we are going again in 8 days to look at developments for our clients.

From my experience in Natal a lot of Brazilians do go there for their holidays, but you will find that most of them go south of Natal. I have been there at NYE and I have never seen so many people in the streets, accommodation at that time must be booked well in advance and minimum stay is 5 nights.

I agree that the numbers are nothing like what you see in Bahia, but Natal doesn't have the accommodation at the moment to handle those sorts of numbers anyway. European tour operators already fill a lot of the places in Natal and the south of Natal during the peak seasons, they put people into everything from 2 star pousadas, self catering apartments to 5 star hotels, so once more capacity becomes available you may start seeing tour operators promoting Natal a lot more.

The situation in Natal as I see it now is: If you want to buy in a place with a proven record of rentals and capital appreciation buy south of Natal (for example this place is selling really fast).
If you want something a bit longer term but is located in a large resort, buy north of Natal.

Regards,
Rob.

Hi D

I hope that i am not being to negative about Natal area, and i really hope people investing their will make good profits, it is my opinion only, I have been to several areas in Brazil over the last 5 years a have a fair bit of experience, i also have a building company in Brazil, and when you say get good advice from an independent lawyer don't think because you have a lawyer everything will be fine, some of the lawyers in Brazil should not be practising, Doing anything in Brazil is hassle and expensive, believe me. all i am saying is that these developers are promising the world to get a sale, the poster Golfingworld has it right in all his questions about the difficulties off Brazil, i get the feel that because he comes out with negative post it upsets people, but people should take his points seriously and research.
he is right to question everything about development potential and claims of huge capital gains and rental returns,

I think that Brazil will be a hot spot,( IN TIME) but i like others on here question the claims of many developers
regarding C.G. and Rentals. lets start off with rentals, i believe that the most important thing about rental is the strength of the local rental potential, because any brazilian going on holiday goes to the beach,

We hear that the local population goes to Natal area for their vacations and this will boost the rental market, well i don't believe that, most people from San Paulo and Brasilia go to the State of Bahia for their holidays
why would the fly an extra 600 miles to Natal.

Any way, i do like the motto (Build it and they will come),I just hope your not living in a Field of Dreams, loll

 

[robh]

Hi Rob,

I had a beachfront villa in the Salvador area for 4 year , i never ever had a problem , i paid a caretaker who looked after the house pool and gardens, at the grand cost of $R300 a month = £75 not much more than a condo charge , the house also cost far less than a price of a 2 bed Apartment being sold on some resorts.
a small price to pay for such luxery, you can also buy houses in secure gated comunities for anyone a bit nervous, anyone buying property not in a development should get a local to make the approach, as one sniff of a gringo and the price doubles.
cheers

Hi Nigel,

I think you are agreeing with what I said before, you need to have someone trustworthy there to look after your place.

I think the problem most people who do not spend a lot of time in Brazil before they buy will have is finding the right people to look after their place for them.

This applies anywhere, you wouldn't just ask any old person you met a few days before in the UK to look after your house in the UK while you go away for 6 months.

I agree with you regarding the difference in prices, but I think you also need to take into account build quality, the standard of fittings and on-site facilities as well. I have been tempted many a time to buy a freestanding resale place and they just don't compare a lot of the time.

Regards,
Rob.

 

[Golfingworld]

Absolutely, it is a forum and it should do what it says on the tin, be an open forum. What we are now seeing is the flow of comment is starting to find a level as both negatives and common sense have been introduced to the self congratulory "haven't we done well to buy in Brazil" tone that seemed prevalent. This is not so important for the active members (whatever their view) but for the outsiders looking in and debating if they want to invest there. The key issue here and it has been my objective is to put those who are "talking up" the location under serious cross examination. The jury then decides if they are guilty or not.

(I have been there at NYE and I have never seen so many people in the streets, accommodation at that time must be booked well in advance and minimum stay is 5 nights.)

The above quote is a good example of "talking up". I was in Natal last December Christmas and also in February, both peak season. I walked out of one hotel and walked into another 3 days before Xams..not only that they gave me a discount as they had plenty of rooms free. In February, when I went back I could have chosen from one of a dozen hotel and/or pousadas all vying for my business. Last winter was their worst tourist season for some years. But there are more than enough large "all inclusive hotels" on the Via Costiera and Pousadas...too many. The SERS Hotel in Costeira is one of the main UK Thomson All inclusive resorts...it was half empty both Christmas week and in February. How do I know, we gave a lift home to someone who works there and went in there ouselves..it was deserted! I paid less than £300 to get their in February with Thomson, why because they were dumping seats as they couldn't sell them. There was still 6/7 free seats on the aircraft. So one flight only ex UK, 350 people max, peak Natal tourist season and Thomson dump seats. Please tell me how this is going to persuade them to divert their new 787's away from Dominican Republic or Orlando?

 

[deedee1]

Re: Hotels Empty!!

Hi all,

GW- WHY DO YOU THINK THE HOTELS ARE EMPTY?? AND SEATS NOT FILED???

Can I explain as I thought that you would have been able to analyse this one???

Firstly the same has happened in for example currently north cyprus and 2 years ago in bulgaria!!!

North cyprus is going through its downturn phase as people have been visiting and eyeing up the market this year!
Bulgaria is on the verge of an upturn this year and next!!

A countries tourism starts to grow and once this happens it starts to capture the eyes of foreigners for investments!!
What has happened in these countries is that once the property market starts to develope and take off the tourism section SEEMS to be slowing down ( or a brief downturn...so to speak)
This is because those who were visiting are now investing and those who have hoped onto the property ladder are also buying!!
Stats then tell you...oohh tourism down.....seats not filed.....hotels empty!!!

This is because people have bought property and are sitting and waiting until completion ( friends, family and relatives of those who have bought also wait-so they can use the property for a cheap rental or holiday) most people dont visit the country till completion...hence seats temporarily not filed! People are buying their own properties there fore hotels are vacant!!
This has happened in alot of NEW and EMERGING MARKETS! The downturn before the upturn!!!!

Given the fact that most off plan properties etc take between 2-3 years to build then I predict that an up-turn will occur by about 2010- youll see!!!

SWINGS AND ROUNDABOUTS MY FRIENDS- SWINGS AND ROUNDABOUTS!!!!!!

See ya D

 

[robh]

Absolutely, it is a forum and it should do what it says on the tin, be an open forum. What we are now seeing is the flow of comment is starting to find a level as both negatives and common sense have been introduced to the self congratulory "haven't we done well to buy in Brazil" tone that seemed prevalent. This is not so important for the active members (whatever their view) but for the outsiders looking in and debating if they want to invest there. The key issue here and it has been my objective is to put those who are "talking up" the location under serious cross examination. The jury then decides if they are guilty or not.

(I have been there at NYE and I have never seen so many people in the streets, accommodation at that time must be booked well in advance and minimum stay is 5 nights.)

The above quote is a good example of "talking up". I was in Natal last December Christmas and also in February, both peak season. I walked out of one hotel and walked into another 3 days before Xams..not only that they gave me a discount as they had plenty of rooms free. In February, when I went back I could have chosen from one of a dozen hotel and/or pousadas all vying for my business. Last winter was their worst tourist season for some years. But there are more than enough large "all inclusive hotels" on the Via Costiera and Pousadas...too many. The SERS Hotel in Costeira is one of the main UK Thomson All inclusive resorts...it was half empty both Christmas week and in February. How do I know, we gave a lift home to someone who works there and went in there ouselves..it was deserted! I paid less than £300 to get their in February with Thomson, why because they were dumping seats as they couldn't sell them. There was still 6/7 free seats on the aircraft. So one flight only ex UK, 350 people max, peak Natal tourist season and Thomson dump seats. Please tell me how this is going to persuade them to divert their new 787's away from Dominican Republic or Orlando?

GW,

I was in a town south of Natal called Pipa it was absolutely packed, it is packed every year, UK tour operators don't put people in that area because they don't know about it.

The Via Costiera has been going downhill for years as the beach area is way overbuilt and the hotels are also miles from the action at Ponta Negra, so I am not surprised that business is bad there.

Regards,
Rob.

 

[Golfingworld]

I am not sure if people can see this picture, but if they can...please see the attached foto of the "massively over developed" 8 kilometre Via Costeira/Ponta Negra Beach! If you'd like the full version to check the evidence pls email me. You are right Robh, from the far end of the over developed 8km Via Costeira Beach, it is 8 km from the bars and restaurants on Ponta Negra. Or in real money, 5 miles or £5 in a taxi. I can see perfectly well why people wish to be cocooned in their all inclusive resorts 60 km north of the real action eating and drinking over-priced drinks. But true, the build quality of the bar they are sitting in will be better.

 

[robh]

GW,

Your photo didn't come out, but you are right I was thinking about Areia Preta, just a bit further up the road.

BUT it is still miles away from the action at Ponta Negra. Why stay there when you can stay somewhere closer and walk for 10 or 15 minutes to a selection of restaurants or bars?

Regards,
Rob.

 

[beenthere]

GolfDork,

I love how you have to use sarcasm to try and win your arguments, I imagine you must be a very sad and lonely person, since you spend all day on this forum you most definitely are.

The reason why room bookings around the Via Costeira has been down is that there has been a huge crackdown on prostitution, and the all-inclusives are the cheapest hotels to go to where the only thing you have to pay for is the girls.

See you later sad golf dork.....

I am not sure if people can see this picture, but if they can...please see the attached foto of the "massively over developed" 8 kilometre Via Costeira/Ponta Negra Beach! If you'd like the full version to check the evidence pls email me. You are right Robh, from the far end of the over developed 8km Via Costeira Beach, it is 8 km from the bars and restaurants on Ponta Negra. Or in real money, 5 miles or £5 in a taxi. I can see perfectly well why people wish to be cocooned in their all inclusive resorts 60 km north of the real action eating and drinking over-priced drinks. But true, the build quality of the bar they are sitting in will be better.

 

[Golfingworld]

Mr "been there done it", you are right, it's a sad life moving around my millions all day online and escaping for a bit of decent banter and abuse on here. You are right about the crackdown there's nothing worse in life than being harrassed all day and night by scantily clad women. Especially when you are trying to relax. The good news is that I got mine for free! I must be able to spot the difference between a good deal and a bad one! Must press on, got some trains to spot!

 

[beenthere]

Mr "been there done it", you are right, it's a sad life moving around my millions all day online and escaping for a bit of decent banter and abuse on here. You are right about the crackdown there's nothing worse in life than being harrassed all day and night by scantily clad women. Especially when you are trying to relax. The good news is that I got mine for free! I must be able to spot the difference between a good deal and a bad one! Must press on, got some trains to spot!

Now you are a millionaire, that is a real laugh.....and one that stays in all inclusive hotels, even funnier....

 

[deedee1]

Re: Prostitution!!!

Hi all,

Now, now boys put the claws away.....!!!!!

Anyway thats a relief at least I dont have to worry about prosies hanging around at grand natal- As theyll all be at yours GW giving you free herpies!!!

Ponta negra- You dont have to post the pickie I am already aware what it looks like and its becoming a mini version of Rio de janeiro- yet people STILL FLOCK THERE!!!

Unfortunately GW I dont think the whole 7,400 km of coastline in brazil will look like ponta negra beach somehow- sorry I couldnt share your overly stated "DOOM AND GLOOM VISION AND NEGATIVITY ABOUT BRAZIL -YET AGAIN"!!!!

Some tend to claim to have bought in brazil but yet are those who are piling on the venom the most about brazil!!!
If I had such negative thoughts and beliefs about a country-then I would never have invested in the 1st place....!!!!! I truely believe this also shows lack of loyalty and committment and a total abscence of respect for that country and its people- so sell up, move on and stop complaining!!!!

Take care all, HAPPY HUNTING, ALL FOR THEIR OWN!!
ROLL ON 2010!!!!

See ya D

P.S- "STILL NOT WEARING MY ROSE TINTED GLASSES...BUT IM NOT WEARING BLACK EITHER"

 

[Golfingworld]

Dee, I forward bought my sexually transmitted diseases "off plan". I paid my first deposit last December and hopefully, they will germinate on time and as agreed in the contract!
But, due to my cynicism, I don't think they'll deliver as agreed. That's a relief!

 

[deedee1]

Hi all,

GW- I know that you are very cynical about brazil in general- But currently what is your status..????? As I am confused??

Have you bought, not bought, considering..???? Come on GW its time we figured out about the real you and your intentions???

Is it that you are intent on discouraging others from buying or investing there?? Or are you just content on labelling all the negatives??
Would like to know if you have anything "POSITIVE TO SAY" OR NOT???
Or have you been "BURNT" by brazil at some point????

Come on GW "tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth"!!!

See ya D