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When is a square metre not a square metre?

Discussion in 'Egypt property' started by Johh C, Dec 2, 2007.

  1. Johh C

    Johh C New Member

    Hi Everyone!

    I have been watching these threads with interest for the last few weeks, am just back from having a look round Hurghada and spent yesterday digesting the Propertastic guide to Hurghada, a really interesting and helpful document (thanks Nick)

    Ive just seen an example of "pre -release" properties been advertised at so many m2 and then suddenly increasing in size (and price) by some 15%.

    This appears to be due to the developer initially failing to take into account common areas and adjusting the square metre area accordingly ( the price per m2 has stayed the same). Making the overall price look a lot less attractive:confused:

    I know that different parts of the world have different ways of determining size, some include common areas , some dont. But if us prospective property buyers are using price per m2 as one of the factors to determine whether or not to buy a particular property, how do we know we are comparing like for like? Is there an accepted cast in stone definition of a properties square metreage or can it vary from developer to developer If there is what exactly is it, if there isnt, then it makes it a lot harder for the buyer to establish whether or not he is getting value for money.:rolleyes:

    Look forward to your thoughts:)


    Cheers

    John
     
  2. Peter Mitry

    Peter Mitry <B>Egypt Forum Founder Member</B>

    Unlike the rest of Europe it is normal in Egypt to include the m2 of balconies and public areas in the total size. Its always worth checking with your Developer that this is the case.
     
  3. awahee123

    awahee123 Banned

    Yes on the Suleder my apartment includes the balconies in the meterage, I think as Peter says this is the norm within Egypt.Personally I would say the m2 quoted for a certain apartment ,should be the amount which is your space within your apartment, but it does need clarification with the developer.
     
  4. dave99

    dave99 New Member

    Why is there any need to be confused ?


    Why is there any need to be confused ?


    I have also been caught by this when looking to buy myself so I understand your point of view.

    If you have a drawing or plan of the apartment with sizes, you can very easily SEE for yourself what the REAL size is.

    If you are not given a detailed plan then ask for one, if no sizes are given on the plan, then simply look somewhere else.

    It is very common practise in Hurghada to quote the most optimistics total space - I also do it, however I also quote the "USEABLE" space, and have a note stating that the larger size is inclusive of 15% "common" space.

    I'm surprised that anyone would reallistically be comparing this sort of investment based on price per sqm, there is so much more to consider.
    This is really only a "tool" used by agents to compare one with another in an arbitary manner and cannot even start to evaluate and personal preferences such as number of bathroom, or balconies or roof space etc.

    ..
     
  5. awahee123

    awahee123 Banned

    I think its good to see what you are exactly paying for,I wouldn't say it is a massive issue but it's good that someone is thinking about this.
     
  6. dave99

    dave99 New Member

    Regular cause for concern

    I don't agree.

    This is a real nuisance to potential buyers who cannot easily compare like for like, whether it is in Hurghada or anywhere else.

    When I first started looking into buying in Hurghada it was (and still is) impossible to know what the sizes mean if using the total size in sqm.

    The industry - and agents in particuar - should be giving all their potential customers a comparable set of information and that means always providing like for like information.

    ..
     
  7. Peter Mitry

    Peter Mitry <B>Egypt Forum Founder Member</B>

    I fully understand your point of view but without doing extensive research it would be very difficult to bring the entire industry in line. An agents job is to make clients aware of issues relating to the product he is selling and to advise clients to be sure they are comparing on a like for like basis. As a Developer you need to ensure that your clients know which way you are calculating or it will never be a fair comparison with other projects which could be to your detriment.
     
  8. dave99

    dave99 New Member

    I alreaady quote BOTH - so no problem

    Peter

    Agents who do any sort of study of what there are selling can easily add any missing information, or add notes about ambigious stuff, but it rarely happens, they just send out almost vebatatum what they are given - not very helpful with this particular issue.

    Maybe Agents should be TELLING developers that they MUST quote BOTH the "enlarged" space and the "usable space"
    - it really is VERY EASY to work out floor space.

    It's length times width for each room added together, with a note stating if it includes balaconies or not (which I think is usable space).

    Stairways and hallways are NEVER Usable space and should always be ignored.

    ..
     
  9. Johh C

    Johh C New Member

    Thanks for the response.

    Most developers seem to have based their prices on a square metre rate. If it was just a case of inside floor area plus balconies then that would be fine. I just wonder what a definition of "common areas" actually is. Does that include the corridor outside the the entrance to you apartment?, if so how much of it. I appreciate that there are many factors which need to be looked into in determining what property suits you, but if some one has stretched the size of a property by including areas which some one else hasnt , then I suppose they could theoretically market the property at a lower price per square metre and make it look better value to a buyer.

    I just think its important as potential buyers we know what the potential variables are. Obviously as Dave pointed out, you can ask for more detailed information to clarify this issue and there are a lot of other factors to be taken into account.

    Can we go on the assumption that it is just nett floor area including balconies or are there other areas factored into the square metre figure as well?

    Cheers

    John
     
  10. dave99

    dave99 New Member

    Not really

    No way to assume anything with any confidence - get the floor plans and work it out, and take into consideration the more important things that make the choice more personal.

    I quote what I beleive, is what most people want to know - the usable amount of space - I then add on 15% to quote the same as everyone else, and make a note of this fact on all sales info and on my web-site.

    Seems simple and very easy to do - but this is not the norm, as you know already.


    ..
     
  11. awahee123

    awahee123 Banned

    I dont't think any developer likes talking about this subject as shown on this thread.
    Its something people should compare as all developers offer different interpretations of m2.
    I again say to everybody who reads this do check, you are entitled to check to see exactly what you are getting for your money.You will find some developers exagerating m2 you should only be interested in what you get within your apartment to get the true value of your property.
     
  12. SHO

    SHO Member

    One of the reasons developers quote the gross size is because when they finish building the apartment the size may differ slightly from a quoted NET size.

    The thing is you are not just buying a set of sq.m. It is the package you are buying with views, facilities, location etc etc. You have the right to know the NET size, just ask and you will be told but analyse the whole package first not the price/sq.m!

    George
     
  13. Johh C

    Johh C New Member

    Oooops i seem to have hit a bit of a nerve here! Am I right in saying then that it is an arbitary figure( about 15%) which is added to the nett area. If so that means that prices are in reality 15% higher than we think on a square metre basis , but I suppose the counter argument to that is that if everybody is doing the same then it doesnt really matter, if everything is pro rata. But is it pro rata? 15% is a big difference but it does complicate decision making a bit, even taking into account quality location views etc.

    Food for thought!

    Cheers


    John
     
  14. awahee123

    awahee123 Banned

    You've hit the button Johnc.you will find when you put something a developer doesn't like on the forum they simply don't agree,I wonder why LOL..
    KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.
     
  15. tommyt

    tommyt New Member

    m2

    I have bought a two bed apartment in the suleder development and have just received detailed plans with all the dimentions. I was originaly told the apartment would be 97 m2, on my contract it states 93 m2, I have worked out the area off the plans and this comes in at 80.43 m2. Also on the original floor plan it showed my apartment would have two balconies, on the detailed plan it shows only one, any comments.
     
  16. dave99

    dave99 New Member

    Why do developers do this !!!!

    I would hope that everyone is aware that exact measurement on a "plan" is not possible, however the degree of variance quoted here is unacceptable, likewise the loss of a balcony.

    As long as you have the plan BEFORE you sign a contract then you can decide whether to go ahead or not, even if the size has changed.

    If the plan is revised after contract then the contract is no longer valid.

    As far as I am concerned a contract should quote both gross and net size, but these figures must always be approximate (maybe upto 5% variance).
    .
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  17. mtrtnik

    mtrtnik New Member

    I put in my contract that if size differes for more than 3% of the one stated in contract developer needs to return money or I need to pay additional sum. Developers return full price per m2, I pay only 80% of original price per m2.
     
  18. if i were you iill speak to my agent and see the possibilities of getting what i sigend for if not i would ask for my money back and deal with honest people who deliver what is promised
     
  19. Mark .Y.

    Mark .Y. New Member

    Personally I would have accepted the drop from 97 to 93 if I was happy with the purchase. However dropping to 80 and losing a balcony suggests you are not getting the actual apartment you ordered (even if it still designated with the same original number) - that would be unacceptable to me and unless it was corrected I would want my money back.

    Mark .Y,
     
  20. Mark .Y.

    Mark .Y. New Member


    Top idea for everybody eh - perhaps the agents can take this to the developers and ensure it is enshrined in everybodys contract, I would add a further caveat that the size cannot differ by more than, say, 6 or 7% of the original agreed meterage.

    Mark .Y.
     
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