Suggestions Please

[beenthere]

These properties in Buzios will be targetting the home market. They will not be aimed at the European absent landlords. They will be priced accordingly. Once the architect and the engineer have sorted out design , numbers, and construction costs they then can be priced. Have you any idea how much some of the closed condominium estates fetch for a house of say 200m²-250m²? These houses in Buzios will probably be around 150m², 3 bed units, and when the sums are done will probably be priced around 300-350,000 R$. Depending on the amenities provided, they could be lower. Incidentally do you have any numbers for rentals on the Litoral Norte or Litoral Sul? I only have figures for aparthotels that are operating in Natal.

I am impressed you didn't mention rental income for Buzios but 300 to 350k R$ (£94k!) for a 3 bed house in a ghost town is a locals price?

I have seen villas for sale in Pipa and Tibau do Sul for less than that on this forum in the for sale section which incidentally are the only places besides Natal itself that have decent rentals right now.

 

[michaelbush]

Hi BT - I guess your idea of Brasil must be the throbbing sound of samba and night life- I thought from your negative attitude you were past all that! If you live here in Brasil you will know that there is another life apart from the parties- Here now in Natal is the Carnatal fiesta- the majority of Nataleses choose to ignore it and go to a quiet place if they can. And yes - there are many Brsilian people who can afford to buy a property at higher prices than the majority who seek to "invest" in Brasil. I have been in condominiums where the minimum price for a house is R$600k, and the majority are over R$1m. The brasilians do have a different agenda to the overseas investor. I agree you can buy a house in many localities for less, but it all depends what you get for your money. Promises of rental income? Size of house including open covered terraces and open covered garages? One has to compare like with like, and for my money if I want to live here I certainly would not choose an off-plan purchase or a condominium in a development aimed at tourists. And since the study for this development has not yet been concluded it is a little premature to criticise it. Buzios is not Pipa, and I hope it never will be the same!

 

[beenthere]

I own a villa in the famous Buzios, my villa is in a nice quiet street but if I want to go out to a restaurant or to a bar then it takes me 15-20 mins to walk into town, which incidentally is full of rich Brazilians on holiday.

In the Natal Buzios I could walk for days before I saw anyone or anything except for empty houses and a few stray dogs.

I await the specifications, but the point I was trying to make is that I have seen high spec villas (in places I find much more attractive than Buzios, Natal) at comparable prices. So whatever you come up with will have to be good.

I also don't abide by rental income promises, I look at the published figures which you can get from the relevant town halls. Which is why I say the only places with a good probability of earning you rental income right now is Pipa, Tibau do Sul and Natal itself.

BT

Hi BT - I guess your idea of Brasil must be the throbbing sound of samba and night life- I thought from your negative attitude you were past all that! If you live here in Brasil you will know that there is another life apart from the parties- Here now in Natal is the Carnatal fiesta- the majority of Nataleses choose to ignore it and go to a quiet place if they can. And yes - there are many Brsilian people who can afford to buy a property at higher prices than the majority who seek to "invest" in Brasil. I have been in condominiums where the minimum price for a house is R$600k, and the majority are over R$1m. The brasilians do have a different agenda to the overseas investor. I agree you can buy a house in many localities for less, but it all depends what you get for your money. Promises of rental income? Size of house including open covered terraces and open covered garages? One has to compare like with like, and for my money if I want to live here I certainly would not choose an off-plan purchase or a condominium in a development aimed at tourists. And since the study for this development has not yet been concluded it is a little premature to criticise it. Buzios is not Pipa, and I hope it never will be the same!

 

[michaelbush]

Well I guess you must have visited Buzios close to Natal in the winter!! there are plenty of things to do there or close by and is not far from central Natal either. Whilst I would agree that Pipa is more tourist orientated, not everyone wants that. Certainly one would not expect in Pipa to re-sell to anyone other than another foreigner. The whole point of preparing studies for investors is also to provide a solution to liquidate an investment. If you can only look for another foreigner the task is much more difficult. Your property sounds lovely and I am sure that if you ever wanted to sell it then you would also have Brasilians looking at it. It would seem that you have not ignored that fact when you bought it!

 

[robh]

Well I guess you must have visited Buzios close to Natal in the winter!! there are plenty of things to do there or close by and is not far from central Natal either. Whilst I would agree that Pipa is more tourist orientated, not everyone wants that. Certainly one would not expect in Pipa to re-sell to anyone other than another foreigner. The whole point of preparing studies for investors is also to provide a solution to liquidate an investment. If you can only look for another foreigner the task is much more difficult. Your property sounds lovely and I am sure that if you ever wanted to sell it then you would also have Brasilians looking at it. It would seem that you have not ignored that fact when you bought it!

Michael,

I have to disagree with what you have said about who buys property in Pipa.

We constantly get enquiries from Brazilians looking for rental accommodation or for property to buy in Pipa. Admittedly they are not from Natal but are usually from Sao Paulo or Rio. We don't get enquiries for Buzios or Tabatinga but we don't list any property there either.

Rob.

 

[michaelbush]

Sorry Rob- I was not intending to comment on who buys in Pipa, just that it is more a holiday destination, whether it be for brasilians or europeans, and thatt Buzios is also a destination that attracts Brasilian and Europeans. It is a different style of holiday as not all are 30's, with the will to club for 7 days!
Buy to let is only one market too, Brasilians also look to live in a good safe area, and renting for tourists is not always the reason to buy.
The fact that you do not list Buzios is possibly the reason you get no enquiries?

 

[beenthere]

Buzios is also a destination that attracts Brasilian and Europeans

Now that is funny.

 

[michaelbush]

I am intrigued to know what caused to you to fall about laughing!!! You obviously know this Buzios, but since I live here and enjoy the beaches on this coast, I do happen to meet both Paulistas and Europeans taking holidays there. So what is the joke BT? I welcome constructive argument, and this can help everyone, but most of your comments are so negative or antagonistic on this forum, I wonder what is your angle. Do you regret buying your villa perhaps? Had a bust up with your Brasilian wife perhaps? Or maybe you are jealous that some of on the forum actually live here permanently?
Whatever the problem you have, I ask only that you provide the proof that you seek in all your your posts, that makes you so contrario!

 

[beenthere]

I am intrigued to know what caused to you to fall about laughing!!! You obviously know this Buzios, but since I live here and enjoy the beaches on this coast, I do happen to meet both Paulistas and Europeans taking holidays there. So what is the joke BT? I welcome constructive argument, and this can help everyone, but most of your comments are so negative or antagonistic on this forum, I wonder what is your angle. Do you regret buying your villa perhaps? Had a bust up with your Brasilian wife perhaps? Or maybe you are jealous that some of on the forum actually live here permanently?
Whatever the problem you have, I ask only that you provide the proof that you seek in all your your posts, that makes you so contrario!

I go there the same reason most other people do and that is because it cuts 45 minutes of travel time from Ponta Negra to Pipa going through there and crossing the river on the ferry into Tibau do Sul. I have done that for years at many different times of the year.

The internet always provides a lot of proof, I don't see many (any?) websites devoted to Buzios Natal, but a lot for Natal and Pipa.

 

[robh]

Sorry Rob- I was not intending to comment on who buys in Pipa, just that it is more a holiday destination, whether it be for brasilians or europeans, and thatt Buzios is also a destination that attracts Brasilian and Europeans. It is a different style of holiday as not all are 30's, with the will to club for 7 days!
Buy to let is only one market too, Brasilians also look to live in a good safe area, and renting for tourists is not always the reason to buy.
The fact that you do not list Buzios is possibly the reason you get no enquiries?

Michael,

The average age of our clients who purchase property in Pipa is about 45. They are usually professionals looking for somewhere that is safe, quiet if they want, has excellent beaches, some shopping and has a good selection of restaurants / bars to go to. Rental income is a bonus.

You are probably right about the enquiries though.

Regards,
Rob.

 

[michaelbush]

Hi Rob- Note all you say but Pipa is hardly a quiet place. The night does not begin till after midnight!! It is a great place to party! When I have visited there it was full of young people. I guess there is another more sedate side to the place that I have not encountered! as far as rental income being a bonus - well who is looking after the property when the client is absent? I always look for the investments that do not need the owner input, yet will give capital growth and income. I am sure you are also trying to help clients make a secure investment. But the difference between a holiday home and a home is enormous, both in cost and in the management requirements. Péople invest in a holiday home because they are sold a dream. Investors think with their heads not their hearts, whic h is why I have opprtunities which are rentable to the Brasilians as well and do not rely on the tourist trade.

 

[JMBroad]

Pipa nightlife may be quite hectic but during the day would you describe Pipa as a mad party place or a quiet trendy town full of people from all different nationalities and ages?

The impression I got from being there is that it was pretty quiet during the day. Everyone I spoke to told me the same thing, during the day it was "dead" but it really comes alive at night.

So if you are someone who isn't going to be there at midnight would the parties really disturb you much? Assuming you don't buy a property downtown central pipa.

 

[michaelbush]

Well I would say that the town is quiet during the day-except at lunchtime- people are at work or on the beaches relaxing or indoors out of the heat. Normal wherever you go.- After dark the town comes alive and it is lively. If you are not going there for that buzz then you dont need to pay for it. I have visited many small coastal villages, towns along the coast and each of them has a charm, totally different. If new developments create new demands then the facilities will follow. In the case of Buzios, it is used a lot by Brasilians, particularly at the weekends. Tourists also come to see the giant Cashew tree close to Buzios. There are lakeside developments planned close by too. So I guess we will have to see how it develops over the next few years.

 

[surfingbrazil]

Hello No Bull***T

One of my friends sells his apartment in Ponta Negra, bordering Capim Macio, very closed to Praia Shopping and aprox. 400 meters from the beach.
This is the best residential area of Natal, Rio Grande do Norte, Brazil.

It is a very nice apartment in an elegant new building fully operative where everything works and, very important, with low monthly expenses of only 170,- reais. (68,-EUR )
It has 54 m2, 2 bedrooms, terrace and private parking in basement.
Fully furnished with Air-con. It has notary deed and registration completed.

Price as it is: 200.000,-BRL ( reais ) equivalent to 80.000,-EUR aprox.

My friend never rented the apartment.
Similar apartments in the same building are rented through the leading real estate brokers of the area in 12 months contracts to Brazilians and yield 1000,-reais net per month.
(Aprox.400,-EUR ).
When I say net it is net; all expenses including real estate annual tax are already deducted.
No tourist pool, no bull…

That will be 6% yield per year.

Income tax in Brazil for rentals of “non residents” is 15%, unless the owner is a resident of an offshore fiscal paradise. In that case it is 25%.

 

[michaelbush]

You can buy bigger size apartments for a lot less! Also in good residential areas. This week I will have a new launch off-plan with 64m2 2 bed apartments with prices from around 150kR$. Also expected to yield aruond 1000R$ per month, and tenant pays the expenses of condominium etc. With pool, gym leisure area etc etc. These are investments that will show capital growth as well as income. You can also buy in Aparthotels with a rental pool management for around the same price as your friend's apartment with all the amenities of a hotel.

 

[surfingbrazil]

Yes Michael, but 150.000,-BRL off plan it is about the same that 200.000,-BRL fully ready, just to move in.

Look at this calculation:

200.000,-BRL includes the furniture and everything you need to live in.
The cost of this is 15.000,-BRL.
Thus the price of the apartment is actually 185.000,-BRL


185.000 – 150.000 = 35.000

The off-plan will take at least 2 years to be ready, probably more.
2 years yield for the ready apartment: 24.000,- ( even considering no increase in rental )

Interest charged by the construction company: 5.250 (most likely it will be more, I am calculating 75.000,-BRL in 1 year at 7% p.a. for the installments).
This is something most foreigners do not understand in the Brazilian contracts.

150.000 + 24000 + 5250 = 179.250,- BRL

The original difference of 35.000,-BRL is already shrinking to 5000,-BRL, and all this with a conservative approach, without considering bank charges for repetitive SWIFTs or even currency risk.

You might argue that you are offering more m2. It is true. But then again it is very relative, since the location is very important as well. Ponta Negra-Capim Macio by the Praia Shopping for that price is the best. Further in Capim Macio it is excellent as well but the distance to the beach is greater and most streets are not paved (Oh, sure, they are going to be paved…as the major promises ….but right now they are not ).
Roberto Freire ( Luxor, Ponta Negra Tower ... ) is more expensive due to the view.

Furthermore we have the specific RISK, connected to ANY OFF-PLAN.
You know how many projects are in the doldrums, bankrupt or simply delayed in Ponta Negra. ( Residence Sul , The Crazy Spanish one with the tunnel under the Roberto Freire, the big one near the Morro do Careca…. Just to name some of the best known).

My point is that for between 3200 to 3800 BRL/ m2 you can buy plenty of beautiful resale apartments in Ponta Negra or Capim Macio. The difference is to be explained by circumstances such as , size, administration cost, quality, location, view….

As a foreign investor why to bother with a off plan in order to gain, perhaps, a few Reais ???

 

[robh]

Pipa nightlife may be quite hectic but during the day would you describe Pipa as a mad party place or a quiet trendy town full of people from all different nationalities and ages?

The impression I got from being there is that it was pretty quiet during the day. Everyone I spoke to told me the same thing, during the day it was "dead" but it really comes alive at night.

So if you are someone who isn't going to be there at midnight would the parties really disturb you much? Assuming you don't buy a property downtown central pipa.

Unless you buy something right next to or on the main street then it wont be noisy at night. Daytime is quiet and mellow.

Rob

 

[michaelbush]

Not all developments have the interest clause- while many reserve the right to link the instalments to inflation which is really low at present. Some even guarantee the price. Yes there is always a currency risk. One can hardly count on the rental income loss for the two years when you have not paid for the product in full. Each case needs to be studied individually. In any event off-plan will almost certainly be worth more at completion, in the same way as you would expect the prices of re-sales to rise, in the same period. Thus you already have a gain probably in excess of 2 years rental income. Normally re-sales do not rise as rapidly as completed off-plan as most people given a choice would buy new rather than second hand for the same price. Location is important but it depends on why you bought in the first place. If you want quality tenants then you are not going to be worried about being near Ponta Negra, you want to be where the quality tenants are, and that may include areas close by but there are many good areas, like Tirol, Petropolis etc. But I also offer re-sales- apartments, houses etc.

 

[No_Bull***t]

It is really busy at present, and there is an interesting deal in Buzios for a relativley small project targeted at Brasilian and foreigners alike that could interest you. My architect is preparing an outline study at present. there is a new off-plan product in Tirol, Natal which is aimed at the pure investor, for re-sale or rental in the same way as a buy-to-let in the UK. Prices are generally lower for this type of product because it is not aimed at the tourist market.

Hi Michael,

Can you PM me when you have some details, alternatively let me have contact details as I will be over whilst you are there.

Thanks.

 

[No_Bull***t]

Please don't hijack this thread with your petty arguments, if you want that, start your own thread.

For those that appear not to have read the initial post of this thread :

Hi,

Have been lurking for a while and am going to Natal in December, looking to see what Investments I can find and would be interested in hearing from others who have already been and who have a clear strategy (including the exit) for their investment.

Please do not reply with websites that purely list prices of off plan developments and offer buy and hold strategies.

Regards,

Chris

In other words : please stay on topic.

This site is like many others, lots of people gassing, plenty of quantity and very little QUALITY.

For anyone who can add anything relevant, I look forward to reading your replies and / or communicating via PM.