Discussion in 'Brazil Property' started by Jones Ralf, May 28, 2010.

  1. Jones Ralf

    Jones Ralf New Member

    Anybody know much about Salvador property - I'm keen to find out where to invest?
  2. debzor

    debzor New Member

    I decided against Salvador as I felt there were much better opportunities elsewhere in NE Brazil... But horses for courses, and it may be good for you...
  3. Realclu1

    Realclu1 New Member

    What made you decide against? Where do you recomend?
  4. debzor

    debzor New Member

    It must be a personal decision, based on your requirements, but I would recommend looking on the coast between Recife and Fortaleza...

    For me I simply did not like Salvador (I got mugged there, which did not help!), and I settled on the island of Itamaraca because it satisfied what I was looking for.
  5. ojosazul88

    ojosazul88 New Member

    Well if the crime is lower in Natal than Fortaleza and Salvador, this certainly doesnt relate to more tourists visiting as the report below states. Whilst only last week an Italian tourist was shot dead in Fortaleza, i still prefer the surrounding beaches etc in Ceara to Natal, and surely a property investor wants to invest where the demand is, excluding of course the domestic residential market.:D

    Natal losing space in international tourism

    According to the last figures published by Infraero, Natal is being less and less visited by foreign travelers.
    In January this year, the airport of Natal received 17,699 international visitors; the number is down from 23,770 in January of 2008.
    Brazil as a whole was visited by 185,818 foreigners in January of this year, more than the 162,075 of January 2008.

    In the Northeast of Brazil, where States compete for the preference of visitors looking for sun and beach, Natal also lost ground; Salvador had a bit more than 40,000 visitors, Fortaleza a bit more than 27,000 and Recife a bit more than 26,000 visitors.

    Just about three years ago, Natal was the second most visited city in the Northeast (behind giant Salvador).
    It was easy to see entire families (parents, kids, babies) of Northern Europeans (easily recognizable by their aspects and their education) walking in Ponta Negra.

    Where have they gone? Many charter flights which used to land in Natal now are going to Fortaleza and Recife; Natal had charter flights everyday, now has a couple a week; there is only one airline carrier (Portuguese TAP) flying into Natal (in Salvador, Fortaleza and Recife, there are, besides TAP, American carriers flying to the USA).

    And why have the tourists gone away?
    I had the opportunity to attend an event about tourism in Natal (which was opened for everybody) sponsored by newspaper Tribuna do Norte, the Governments of Natal and Rio Grande do Norte, and the local tourism trade (hotels, agencies, etc).
    The tourist trade says that the main reason to cause the fall in visitors numbers is "lack of divulgation", or "lack of marketing" of Natal as a destination.
    What they are saying, basicly, is that the Government should spend more tax-payers money in marketing, because then people would learn about Natal and then would flock to see our paradisiac beaches and our beautiful city.
    The Government agrees that more money should be spend in marketing, but weighs that the private sector should make their own investments, too. However, some high staff of Government are not unhappy to take trips to Europe to participate in tourism fairs and events.

    - the website of the Secretary of Tourism of Natal is in Portuguese only;
    - after visitors arrive in Natal (and face the unprepared staff and the poor maintenance of the airport), information is even more scarce; most people (including hotel staff, restaurant staff and taxi drivers) still can't communicate in English; official signalization is still poor (a foreigner visiting Fort of Reis Magos still can't find any guide in English).
    - Most tourists take trips to the beaches and get fascinated, but they don't want to take the trip twice; after two or three days, they need other options of what to do. In Fortaleza and Recife, multilingual leaflets published by the Government are freely distributed in hotels and restaurants, with hundreds of suggestions for visitors; in Natal, visitors depend on tips from the hotel clerk or the taxi driver;
    - Natal has probably more and better hotels than any other city in the Northeast; however, prices are still higher than elsewhere; prices of real estate sky rocketed in Natal, which reflects in the prices of everything, particularly hotels. Natal has much fewer restaurants than neighbor cities; gastronomic travelers have better options in Fortaleza, Recife or even Pipa;
    - Natal continues to be a city of the day; prostitution is not so blatant as some time ago, but nightlife options for families and couples are still poor (Zas-Tras was a famous regional show, but it was closed down because the theater was sold and a condo was built).

    So, there are factors other than lack of marketing which explain why visitors are not coming to Natal.
  6. ojosazul88

    ojosazul88 New Member

    Aeroporto Internacional de Natal

    Domestic Arrivals: 1,575,989 (Nov 09), 1,766,387 (Dec 09), 243,144(Jan 10), 423,709(Feb 10)
    International Arrivals: 114,709 (Nov 09), 127,726 (Dec 09), 14,015(Jan 10), 25,376(Feb 10)

    Aeroporto Internacional de Fortaleza

    Domestic Arrivals: 3,564,589(Nov 09), 3,987,752 (Dec 09), 505,803(Jan 10), 870,099(Feb10)
    International Arrivals: 200,737(Nov 09), 223,899 (Dec09), 23,848(Jan 10), 42,571(Feb10)

    Aeroporto Internacional de Salvador

    Domestic Arrivals:6,069,189(Nov 09), 6,738,661(Dec 09), 802,314(Jan10), 1,441,848(Feb10)
    International Arrivals: 287,183(Nov 09), 314,059(Dec 09), 37,548(Jan 10), 70,068(Feb10)
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2010
  7. ojosazul88

    ojosazul88 New Member

    Well perhaps you interpret statistics differently to me. Both Fortaleza and Salvador each receive over 50% more Brazillian tourists than Natal in the high season, and thats just the ones who fly. Together both Fortaleza and Salvador account for more than 5 times the amount of Brazillian tourists/visitors in the high season than Natal as well. This is without even discussing domestic tourism to Florianopolis, Rio, (1 million US tourists visit here and very few to the N.E), Eco Tourism etc.
    So Natal is not a major player when it comes to domestic or international tourism,
    and the figures confirm it. Yes, 287,000 extra Brazillians visited Natal in Dec 09 compared to Dec08 but then again 764,869 extra Brazilians visited Fortaleza in the same period so its relative.
    Dont get me wrong, i am just one opinion and having been to Natal various times there are many positives to the region but the thousands of opinions that count, ie the huge extra amount of Brazilian travellers to Fortaleza and Salvador obviously believe those two regions have far more to offer and i would agree.
    Therefore if my sole purpose was to purchase property for investment it would be to target market a large proportion of the domestic travel market but still in areas with further growth potential and Natal certainly is not number 1 or 2 on my list. If i were buying solely for personal reasons and holidays etc i would buy in Florianopolis or Cumbuco( just my personal choice).
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2010
  8. JMBroad

    JMBroad New Member

    All of the airports of the big 4 (Salvador, Recife, Fortaleza and Natal) have recently been through renovations and/or expansion to make them larger and able to cope with the added traffic except one - Natal. The construction of the Natal airport is ongoing and a source of much debate.

    The last airport to expand of the big 4 was Recife and it went from 1.5 to 5 mm passengers per year capacity. 5 years later they are already over their new capacity.

    Natal is currently operating at 107% of capacity and looking forward to the new expansion.

    Either way - I think the argument about which destination is the best tourism destination is a bit of an internet argument - totally pointless. The real demand is from the local market, not tourists.

    Lots of places in the northeast of Brazil make excellent holiday homes - to name but a few of the more popular holiday destinations from south to north; Trancoso, Arraial da Ajuda, Porto Seguro, Belmonte, Itacaré, Chapada Diamantina, Costa de Sauípe, Porto de Galinhas, Morro de Sao Paulo, Olinda, Tambaba, Pipa, Gostoso, Galinhos, Canoa Quebrada, Jericoacoara.

    I'd chose probably any of those before I'd chose Cumbuco personally - but it all boils down to personal frames of reference. I did chose one of the above and it was in the state of Rio Grande do Norte and was because of a set of reasons which suited my personal requirements.
  9. ojosazul88

    ojosazul88 New Member

    Ha, Not sure i get that argument Rob, You still interpret the figures to show Natal growing faster than Fortaleza because its 33% smaller,many small tourist destinations have a huge increase in arrivals in the peak seasons around the world, you should know about Marbella, Mojacar,Almeria, Sharm in Egypt, theres many and to answer JM my points here at no time have been what is the better tourist destination because i agree with you thats personal and a pointless argument. I am answering the first post who was enquiring about Salvador investment but i felt the answers very biased in Natals favour for commercial reasons. If domestic Brazillian tourist / business numbers are important when considering an investment location, then perhaps Salvador and Fortaleza are good locations based on all my previous posts stats.
    Perhaps the new airport for Natal will see a big increase in domestic arrivals but there will also be a further expansion in Fortalezas airport and billions of euros in investment in the region.

    Again my opinions are of no importance but the facts below re Fortaleza are and this would influence me when investing to attract my target market.

    "This supply shortage is big news in Fortaleza. One of the city's leading newspapers, O Povo, writes that the market is currently running at close to 100 percent occupancy. The key drivers are vacationers, business travelers, company executives, and retirees from southern Brazil."

    "During the long weekend the average occupancy in the hotels in Fortaleza was 96,3%, and generated the income of 166.7 million BRL ( aprox. 97,21million USD). In some hotels the occupancy was 100%. The research was done by the sector of Study and Search of Setur-CE (Secretary of Tourism of the State of Ceara). Setur predicts that in the end of the year 2009 and generally during the whole high season the tourist flow will be extraordinary high.
    The Secretary of Tourism of the State of Ceará, Bismarc Maia, informs, that not only during this long weekend, but during almost all the weekends in the second semester of 2009, all hotels in Fortaleza had very high occupancy rates. He also underlines, that the tourist flow in March, April and July was the best in the history of the state of Ceará. The famous water park, Beach Park, received more tourists in July than in January, when it is vacation time in Brazil. That is why, he is sure, that in the end of the year of 2009 and during the whole high season there will be incomparably high flow of tourism.
    Bismarc Maia emphasizes that the average occupancy level in Fortaleza is 10% above the Brazilian average. And the average movement in the international airport Pinto Martins, from January till September, is almost 21% over Brazilian average while no other city in the northeast of Brazil reaches even 10% above national average.
    For Maia, all of this, is the result of hard work of the State’s Government which invests into the infrastructure and the publicity of Ceará in the media during the whole year. He says, that the idea of the State, is to make the Brazilians, always have Fortaleza and Ceará in their minds. Apart from the publicity in the big national magazines, the Government of the State of Ceará propagates it, in the national TV Rede Globo.
    The program called Sun Insurance (Seguro Sol), guarantees all tourists the trip for free if it rains 2 days in the row. Of course apart from the two month rainy season. Maia also reminds, that it is not only Fortaleza that receives tourists. Only during this long weekend, the destinations such as, Canoa Quebrada, Jericoacoara and Porto das Dunas, showed an occupancy rate higher than 87%. The Povo newspaper met many famous Brazilians on the Praia do Futuro Beach in Fortaleza during the long weekend. One of them was the businessman Carlos Prachedes, who is from Pernambuco, a state that competes with Ceará over tourists. Even people from Pernambuco prefer Fortaleza"
  10. ojosazul88

    ojosazul88 New Member

    I think this has run its course!!:shot:, The article on Fortaleza was talking about 2009 and the main hoilday season at the end of 2009 which to my knowledge was the last main holiday period, i also posted visitor numbers upto Feb 10 for Fortaleza and Natal, and unless there has been a major domestic tourism surge to Natal that article too is not irrelevent.
    Also none of my arguments are my arguments, they are facts , Fortaleza is a far more popular domestic Brazilian tourism destination than Natal and therefore offers better investment opportunity.
    Maybe when im next in Natal you can prove me wrong, firstly i have to head to Imperatriz in Brazil which im sure you dont know!, def no tourist market there.

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