Ponta Negra development

[RalphJ]

I thank god then that I did not have to get out of the plane when I landed in Aracaju en route to Rio from Natal, the place looked bad enough from the air.

If you think this is only something that happens in Aracaju then you are more naive than I originally thought.

 

[JMBroad]

JM;

Given that all european agents aren't crooks and con-artists, but let me tell you something about Brazil....and I'm sure that most of you are well aware of this. First of all, you need to understand that I've been living in the same city in Brazil for 10 years, and started visiting numerous years before that. I speak fluent portuguese like a "nordestino"(northeasterner),matter of fact when I meet Paulistas and Gauchos they laugh and say they've never met an american with a "nordestino" accent when speaking portuguese. My only child was born and being raised here. I've been married and divorced here. Currently have two businesses and had another. I know a LOT of people, including many politicians in past and current administrations, as well as the people at the various markets, gas stations, telephone companies, etc, etc,etc.

The point I'm trying to make is that I am as much as a "local" as you will find being a "gringo". And unfortunately it took me numerous years to become known in the city where I live but most importantly to "learn the ropes", as they say, in not only doing business, but to "learn" the local rates on everything from taxicab rides to beachfront land, to construction and building costs, to fruit at the market during the different seasons.

The point I guess I'm trying to make, which is no big revelation, but is that when most here in Brazil see a gringo coming, they think we're all millionaires. And their 50 centavo agua de coco turns into 5 dollars. I just love it when people here start selling things in "dollars". Thank goodness this rarely happens to me anymore in Aracaju...but does still happen. And when I open my mouth and they think I'm a brazilian from the south, because of my appearance only, because my accent is one from the northeast, then the negotiation process takes an abrupt detour. So, although you may have honest agents in England, the chances of them selling for market prices that exist here in Brazil are slim to none and not necessarily because the agents are inflating the prices, but the prices are more than likely being inflated somewhere along the line. Either from the developer, or local agent, to the international agent, or elsewhere in the sales chain.

I know exactly what you mean Ralph, I get the same thing when going back to Portugal. I speak Portuguese with a noticeable Madeiran accent (unless I force a Lisbon, Porto or Brasilian accent). I speak German with a Bayerisch accent and Spanish with an Andalucian accent.

I wasn't pitched any 5 dollar coconut water but at the start of our week in Brasil, the chap from sales was buying necklaces for 25 R$ whereas at the end of the week he was getting the same thing for 5$. But that happens to an extent everywhere around the world. A benefit for those of us who speak Portuguese is being able to check prices from a distance before meeting the people face to face to negotiate terms.

However there is a vast difference between offering product at inflated prices and intentionally loading the price with the intent of stealing money and swindling clients. All I'm reminding GW of, once again, is to have the slightest manners and be polite. If he has any factual evidence that an agent is intentionally misrepresenting clients then by all means, shout it from the rooftops. But the sweeping statements are childish and irresponsible.

You are European and work in real estate.

 

[beenthere]

If you think this is only something that happens in Aracaju then you are more naive than I originally thought.

Overcharging tourists happens all over the world.

But since you keep claiming there is a wholesale conspiracy, why don't you provide some proof???

 

[RalphJ]

Overcharging tourists happens all over the world.

But since you keep claiming there is a wholesale conspiracy, why don't you provide some proof???

Proof? LOL. Beenthere, you sir, are an idiot. The proof is in a decade living here. Having dozens of brazilian friends and family that readily admit what I stated. Do you realize how stupid you sound when you state...."why don't you provide some proof....."

Seriously, are you that ignorant?

 

[beenthere]

Proof? LOL. Beenthere, you sir, are an idiot. The proof is in a decade living here. Having dozens of brazilian friends and family that readily admit what I stated. Do you realize how stupid you sound when you state...."why don't you provide some proof....."

Seriously, are you that ignorant?

Since you need to resort to insults I have to assume that you can't defend what you are saying and therefore are speaking a load of ****.

I presume you are making these claims so when your development is ready you can mark up the price having in the meantime convinced people that you wouldn't do such a thing ....

 

[RalphJ]

Since you need to resort to insults I have to assume that you can't defend what you are saying and therefore are speaking a load of ****.

I presume you are making these claims so when your development is ready you can mark up the price having in the meantime convinced people that you wouldn't do such a thing ....

Boy, you've got me pegged. And what I've stated is apparent to any gringo that's ever spent more than a "whore a thon" weekend in Brazil. It's like saying "ice is cold".

 

[beenthere]

Boy, you've got me pegged. And what I've stated is apparent to any gringo that's ever spent more than a "whore a thon" weekend in Brazil. It's like saying "ice is cold".

If it is so obvious, then it must be easy to provide just one example of a property that is being sold at different prices to locals and foreigners?

To make sure there is no mistaking the deceit make sure it is by the same agent or developer and also make sure that it is accessible by everyone on the internet so everyone on this forum can see it.

 

[JMBroad]

The fact that there are "local" prices and "gringo" prices in Brazil should be obvious to anyone who has done the least bit of travelling. Happens all over the world, some places more obviously and some less so.

Where I grew up there was a "residente" price and a "tourist" price for some goods and services. Both prices were openly published and on display. To be eligible to pay the discounted "residente" price you had to show ID proving you were a local.

Hardly scandalous - wouldn't call it so much of a wholesale conspiracy so much as "human nature". I can't think of a single country I've been to where that didn't happen to some extent except perhaps Switzerland and Germany.

And in Germany they did the same thing but with a twist. I ordered one beer and they gave me one metre of beer (10 beers),took my money and walked off, hoping that I can't speak German and won't come after them for the change

 

[JMBroad]

If it is so obvious, then it must be easy to provide just one example of a property that is being sold at different prices to locals and foreigners?

To make sure there is no mistaking the deceit make sure it is by the same agent or developer and also make sure that it is accessible by everyone on the internet so everyone on this forum can see it.

It happens all the time.

All you have to do is pick five different real estate agencies who sell Brazil, go through their websites to see if they are offering the same product then compare prices. You are bound to find different prices sooner or later. I know of a couple of developments in Brazil being offered by different agents at different prices.

My issue isn't that it doesn't happen, my issue is with the constant sweeping statements saying that every European agent does it. It's a matter of principle.

 

[RalphJ]

I can't think of a single country I've been to where that didn't happen to some extent except perhaps Switzerland and Germany.

I lived in the U.S. for my first 33 years of life. And can't think of one instance where something would be sold at a higher price for a foreigner than for an american. In the U.S. money talks, the price is the price. And it doesn't matter if your japanese, chinese, or brazilian.

 

[RalphJ]

And beenthere....I've already detailed the sitaution at Viva Vida. And one of the english homeowners there has already came here and made a statement confirming everything I said about it. The homes there were sold from 50% to 150% more to the english than they were to Brazilians. And the agents and developer has tried to justify this price difference by a furniture package that cost around 5-8 thousand reais from Casa Bahia...yet the differences in the purchase prices were anywhere from 50,000 reais to 110,000 reais.

 

[JMBroad]

I lived in the U.S. for my first 33 years of life. And can't think of one instance where something would be sold at a higher price for a foreigner than for an american. In the U.S. money talks, the price is the price. And it doesn't matter if your japanese, chinese, or brazilian.

Haven't been to the States or Canada yet. I imagine it probably wouldn't happen in Japan or China either. I made a sweeping statement and apologise

 

[beenthere]

And beenthere....I've already detailed the sitaution at Viva Vida. And one of the english homeowners there has already came here and made a statement confirming everything I said about it. The homes there were sold from 50% to 150% more to the english than they were to Brazilians. And the agents and developer has tried to justify this price difference by a furniture package that cost around 5-8 thousand reais from Casa Bahia...yet the differences in the purchase prices were anywhere from 50,000 reais to 110,000 reais.

So you have one example which you have told us about again and again, yet you keep claiming that every agent is a scammer because of this one case.

So sorry I would like another example that you haven't told us about before, if it is so obvious then it shouldn't be so hard to find should it??

 

[RalphJ]

So you have one example which you have told us about again and again, yet you keep claiming that every agent is a scammer because of this one case.

So sorry I would like another example that you haven't told us about before, if it is so obvious then it shouldn't be so hard to find should it??

Don't put words in my mouth, I've clearly stated that every agent is not a scammer. And try sticking on topic. My last statement of your rebuttal was concerning brazilians having a "brazilian price" and a "gringo price". And that's common knowledge, but unfortunately you're someone that obviously feeds off of having conflict with people.

 

[beenthere]

Don't put words in my mouth, I've clearly stated that every agent is not a scammer. And try sticking on topic. My last statement of your rebuttal was concerning brazilians having a "brazilian price" and a "gringo price". And that's common knowledge, but unfortunately you're someone that obviously feeds off of having conflict with people.

You still haven't provided another example ...

 

[robh]

It happens all the time.

All you have to do is pick five different real estate agencies who sell Brazil, go through their websites to see if they are offering the same product then compare prices. You are bound to find different prices sooner or later. I know of a couple of developments in Brazil being offered by different agents at different prices.

My issue isn't that it doesn't happen, my issue is with the constant sweeping statements saying that every European agent does it. It's a matter of principle.

JM,

I too know one agent who load all their prices by at least 10%, they are very big and well known, but this doesn't mean that we do it.

So yes I too am getting a bit sick of the sweeping statements.

I have also seen gringo and local prices on property, but in the last few years this has been happening less and less in the popular areas where the prices have been rising.

For example a 5 bed villa for $40k instead of $20k is still a bargain to most gringos (although it would be pretty remote at that price ). Whilst someone doubling a $200k property for gringos is not going to find many buyers.

Rob.

 

[JMBroad]

You still haven't provided another example ...

Another example of what? Different prices for the same development from different agents?

A quick google search and comparison should provide you with a couple.

But beware, the lowest price isn't always the correct price.

There are generally two ways of misrepresenting property prices: Advertising a property at an "incredible" low price - but oh shame, "the units are all sold out BUT we do have some at a slightly higher price" or just inflating the price which is advertised in Brazil. Look for the same product being offered by two different european agents, normally the ones with the bad reputation, the big boy who everyone loves to hate is allegedely involved in this kind of practice.

Funnily enough I took an agency who is probably advertised as having the worst reputation and looked at their website.

They are offering two developments in Brazil, both from a Brazilian developer.

On the first development, the lowest prices they are advertising is lower than the cheapest property on the same development directly from the developer. (about 2000 € cheaper)

On the second development the lowest price they are advertising is 6000 € more expensive than the cheapest property on the same development directly from the developer.

Could be the exchange rate I guess. but then either both would be more expensive or both would be cheaper.

 

[JMBroad]

JM,

I too know one agent who load all their prices by at least 10%, they are very big and well known, but this doesn't mean that we do it.

So yes I too am getting a bit sick of the sweeping statements.

I have also seen gringo and local prices on property, but in the last few years this has been happening less and less in the popular areas where the prices have been rising.

For example a 5 bed villa for $40k instead of $20k is still a bargain to most gringos (although it would be pretty remote at that price ). Whilst someone doubling a $200k property for gringos is not going to find many buyers.

Rob.

That's exactly why I'm making such a fuss about it Rob, because we don't do it either, but still statements are made constantly lumping all european agents in the same basket.

I heard a lot of good things about you and your company during my visit by the way, Alex and Sabine say "hi", I told them I'd pass it on.

 

[robh]

That's exactly why I'm making such a fuss about it Rob, because we don't do it either, but still statements are made constantly lumping all european agents in the same basket.

I heard a lot of good things about you and your company during my visit by the way, Alex and Sabine say "hi", I told them I'd pass it on.

Thanks for the compliment and the message.