Opening a bank account

[Matida Fernandes]

First of all I am not trying to sell anything, I am not even a sales person as suggested by debzor. Secondly I never suggested that anyone could get a investor visa by tranferring the money. If you read carefully you will see that I mentioned "Plan of Investment", which is, according to RESOLUÇÃO NORMATIVA Nº. 84, DE 10 FEVEREIRO DE 2009, a plan of the number of brazilian employees it will have. I have no idea what Dave is going to do in Brazil, but he probably have to do something in order to survive and, as mentioned by Rob, employ a brazilian or two is not hard . What I suggested was that he could open a company, then open a bank account in the name of the company and tranfer the money into this account to buy his property. And later he can use this company to try to apply for a visa because one of the requires (R$150K) would be already covered.

 

[debzor]

You also need to employ a Brazilian or two which isn't hard to do, nor expensive, but the easy days of getting visas are over. If anyone wants an investment visa then I suggest to do so sooner than later as it will not be getting any easier in the future.

Regards,
Rob

Exactly - and with the minimum wage rising next year to (I think) R$515, this will make employing a Brazilian average out at around R$720 per month per employee (factoring in Christmas bonus, paid holiday, taxes, etc).

You will also need to employ an accountant (another min wage),pay business bank charges (about R$450 pa),let alone all your utility and running costs.

So for an investment visa with a couple of employees, allow about R$2000 per month, before you pay a single bill!

 

[Matida Fernandes]

Dave, I spoke to my manager and the only thing she suggested was for you to speak to your bank about oppenig a "domiciliary account". She wasnt quite sure, but said that is an account that allows you to make som transactions, but is not like a proper brazilian account. She also said you could find out more through your local HSBC manager.

 

[JMBroad]

Exactly - and with the minimum wage rising next year to (I think) R$515, this will make employing a Brazilian average out at around R$720 per month per employee (factoring in Christmas bonus, paid holiday, taxes, etc).

You will also need to employ an accountant (another min wage),pay business bank charges (about R$450 pa),let alone all your utility and running costs.

So for an investment visa with a couple of employees, allow about R$2000 per month, before you pay a single bill!

We've discussed this before I think but the rules state you need to "create employment" for Brazilians - there is no detail on how many you have to employ, although you do need a contador. I think the costs per month are a lot lot lower than R$ 2000,00 but I'll find out and let you know. (Edit) I just checked - it can cost as little as R$ 232.50 per month to run a company - plus tax on revenue of course.

On the other hand, one of the stipulations of the investment visa is that the money can't be invested into a residential property which the investor is going to use to live in him or herself, so unless Dave is thinking about buying a house to live in and one other to use to apply for the investor visa, it doesn't seem too plausible.

Also, the process takes about 3 months to complete (at least where you and I are located, Matida) and during that time all of the funds of the company which have been set up have to be at the whim of a resident in Brazil (of any nationality). During those three months, the administrator could technically spend the money on whatever he wants to, so it is vital that the utmost care is taken when chosing an administrator.

 

[debzor]

We've discussed this before I think but the rules state you need to "create employment" for Brazilians - there is no detail on how many you have to employ, although you do need a contador. I think the costs per month are a lot lot lower than R$ 2000,00 but I'll find out and let you know. (Edit) I just checked - it can cost as little as R$ 232.50 per month to run a company - plus tax on revenue of course.

On the other hand, one of the stipulations of the investment visa is that the money can't be invested into a residential property which the investor is going to use to live in him or herself, so unless Dave is thinking about buying a house to live in and one other to use to apply for the investor visa, it doesn't seem too plausible.

Also, the process takes about 3 months to complete (at least where you and I are located, Matida) and during that time all of the funds of the company which have been set up have to be at the whim of a resident in Brazil (of any nationality). During those three months, the administrator could technically spend the money on whatever he wants to, so it is vital that the utmost care is taken when chosing an administrator.

JMB - Where did the R$ 232.50 come from, and what is included?

I know several companies owned by investor visa holders (including myself),and none are anywhere near as low as this. Maybe this is the difference between theory and reality?

 

[debzor]

First of all I am not trying to sell anything, I am not even a sales person as suggested by debzor. Secondly I never suggested that anyone could get a investor visa by tranferring the money. If you read carefully you will see that I mentioned "Plan of Investment", which is, according to RESOLUÇÃO NORMATIVA Nº. 84, DE 10 FEVEREIRO DE 2009, a plan of the number of brazilian employees it will have. I have no idea what Dave is going to do in Brazil, but he probably have to do something in order to survive and, as mentioned by Rob, employ a brazilian or two is not hard . What I suggested was that he could open a company, then open a bank account in the name of the company and tranfer the money into this account to buy his property. And later he can use this company to try to apply for a visa because one of the requires (R$150K) would be already covered.

Hi Matida

Sorry, you misunderstand - I was not aiming my comments at you in particular, just general words of caution.

Too many agents throw investor visa requirements about as a solution to residence here, and it is simply no longer the case that these visas are easy (or anywhere near easy) to get, maintain and renew.

 

[Matida Fernandes]

Hi Matida

Sorry, you misunderstand - I was not aiming my comments at you in particular, just general words of caution.

Too many agents throw investor visa requirements about as a solution to residence here, and it is simply no longer the case that these visas are easy (or anywhere near easy) to get, maintain and renew.

Its Ok. I realise that. And as a brazilian is quite dificult to recognise that some brazilian can be very crooked...

 

[Matida Fernandes]

We've discussed this before I think but the rules state you need to "create employment" for Brazilians - there is no detail on how many you have to employ, although you do need a contador. I think the costs per month are a lot lot lower than R$ 2000,00 but I'll find out and let you know. (Edit) I just checked - it can cost as little as R$ 232.50 per month to run a company - plus tax on revenue of course.

On the other hand, one of the stipulations of the investment visa is that the money can't be invested into a residential property which the investor is going to use to live in him or herself, so unless Dave is thinking about buying a house to live in and one other to use to apply for the investor visa, it doesn't seem too plausible.

Also, the process takes about 3 months to complete (at least where you and I are located, Matida) and during that time all of the funds of the company which have been set up have to be at the whim of a resident in Brazil (of any nationality). During those three months, the administrator could technically spend the money on whatever he wants to, so it is vital that the utmost care is taken when chosing an administrator.

1 - I think that what debzor quoted includes the salaries and its costs (taxes, bonus, insurance, etc),which could easily reach over R$ 700,00 per employee. R$ 232,50 is probably just the accountant fee, please tell me if I am wrong. They normaly charge a minimum salary to "look after" a company, but I do know a few accountants that would charge less in this kind of situation, when a company has just a few employees. On the other hand if the company is contracting people to work, the owner will, of course, make use of them. So, is not just a cost.

2 - I am not quite sure on this, as the RESOLUÇÃO NORMATIVA Nº. 84, DE 10 FEVEREIRO DE 2009, doesnt specifically say that. But you are probably right, as I am sure, as a brazilian lawyer, that from the "productivity activity" the Ministry can assume that.

3 - In Dave´s case his got a nephew (I think) in Salvador with a permanent visa and he could be the administrator. But again you are totally right that is very dangerous to leave the money in an account administrated by an unknown person, despite I think the money doesnt have to be wainting the 3 months at the bank to buy the property.

 

[debzor]

Its Ok. I realise that. And as a brazilian is quite dificult to recognise that some brazilian can be very crooked...

Trust me, "gringos" can be worse!!

 

[debzor]

I just checked - it can cost as little as R$ 232.50 per month to run a company - plus tax on revenue of course.

QUOTE]

For someone with an investor visa - are you certain?

This IS news!

 

[JMBroad]

Yes, as Matida stated, that is for the contadora (accountant). Above that it depends on how many Brazilians are employed by your company, how much you pay them and of course tax on revenue created by your company.

 

[debzor]

Yes, as Matida stated, that is for the contadora (accountant). Above that it depends on how many Brazilians are employed by your company, how much you pay them and of course tax on revenue created by your company.

Yes, as Matida stated, I was quoting a figure to (for example) employ a couple of Brazilians, and was trying to give a realistic estimate for what it actually costs to run a company here.

Accountants (perhaps only where I am) charge at least one minimum wage to look after active businesses, report annual accounts, prepare tax statements, etc.

I see little point in quoting a figure that is not realistic, and proven on the ground.

 

[JMBroad]

Yes, as Matida stated, I was quoting a figure to (for example) employ a couple of Brazilians, and was trying to give a realistic estimate for what it actually costs to run a company here.

Accountants (perhaps only where I am) charge at least one minimum wage to look after active businesses, report annual accounts, prepare tax statements, etc.

I see little point in quoting a figure that is not realistic, and proven on the ground.

I know more than one person who is paying that for their accountant to handle their company. With regards to wages for staff working for the company as mentioned it varies depending on how many staff you have working in the company, what they do, how many hours they work there, whether you have to pay them transport bonus or food bonus (sometimes you do) etc... same as any company anywhere in the world (as far as I know) - I've never seen a company which is not non-profit which has staff working for free but maybe I just haven't travelled enough. The amount of staff you have and how much time they spend working for you, etc is always proportionate to the amount of business your company is doing and therefore also proportionate to the revenue company is making.

Also, the tax you pay will also be proportionate to the revenue of the company - I don't think anyone would keep a company open and pay staff to just sit there and produce nothing. It simply wouldn't make sense. One of the companies within our group of companies only handles the administration of other companies and all of them are making a profit regardless of the accountants fee's, staff fee's, tax etc. Again - it wouldn't make much point having a company which is losing money staying open.

 

[mitico67]

Hi all,
I have been looking through old posts to see if I can find current info, but everything seems to be from 2007 concerning this.
As I posted before I intend to move to Brazil (Bahia) in November - I have applied for my CPF (at the Br consulate in London 5 weeks ago and it still has not reached the Fazenda in Brazil!),and will be applying for a Vitem once I have the required documents. I will probably have to move out initially as a tourist and sort out accommodation (intend to buy rather than rent),then return home to collect my visa to enter officially on it.
It appears that you can open a bank account with just a CPF, but I have seen several posts which state that a RNE is also needed (I am going out initially as a volunteer for up to 2 years),so could I have some clarification of the current situation? I will have an UK bank account, but don't really want to rely on ATM's (and exchange charges!) the whole time I am out in Brazil.
Regards,
Dave.

Hi Dave, just to let you know that today I've finally managed to open a bank account(poupanca) at Itau in Londrina. I've arrived in Brasil from London on a student visa almost 3 months ago ed I've been asked for the following documents: passport,cpf,temporary rne and a utility bill in my case from Copel(electricity).Apparently I'll be able to pay bill on line, receive an atm card(debit) receive money from abroad and the account is free. I was offered a bank account too but I preferred the simplest option just be sure to get an account. If everything goes well I'll apply for the current account as well.

 

[debzor]

Hi Dave, just to let you know that today I've finally managed to open a bank account(poupanca) at Itau in Londrina. I've arrived in Brasil from London on a student visa almost 3 months ago ed I've been asked for the following documents: passport,cpf,temporary rne and a utility bill in my case from Copel(electricity).Apparently I'll be able to pay bill on line, receive an atm card(debit) receive money from abroad and the account is free. I was offered a bank account too but I preferred the simplest option just be sure to get an account. If everything goes well I'll apply for the current account as well.

The critical thing you have is the temporary RNE, which others simply do not have. This works to open a poupanca (deposit or savings) account, but you may find you need proof of a job to get a corrente (current or checking) account

 

[ZambeziDave]

Thank you all for the responses here.
I am actually in the process of applying for a two-year Volunteer visa, working for a small charity (for nothing!),and hope to survive on a small pension annuity I have from the UK. To that end I am buying a house to live in (so I don't have monthly rent costs to worry about). I was hoping to open a bank account to avoid ATM charges all the time, and to facilitate payment of utility bills. The volunteer visa is a Vitem, so even that will not give me the RNE needed for a bank account - but I do now have my CPF, which only took 12 weeks, so now also have a local sim card for my phone.
Been here a week and loving it!
Dave.

 

[JPD]

Hi heres an idea ................... once your application for your visa goes in, go to the Policia Federal and get them to do a 'declaracao', take this along with your CPF and proofs and ur passport to a branch of Bradesco. They will seek confirmation from central and bingo 20 minutes !!!

Worked for us !

JB

 

[ZambeziDave]

Thanks for this, JPD. I am still waiting for the final piece of paperwork from the charity ("didn't know we needed this as no-one told us"! It should have followed automatically from the Prefeitura but they forgot to pass it on!),so have until the end of May before my 6 months are up. Just hope that I can get my application in sometime in the next 4 weeks or it could be a 6 month "vacation" elsewhere!

 

[debzor]

Hi heres an idea ................... once your application for your visa goes in, go to the Policia Federal and get them to do a 'declaracao', take this along with your CPF and proofs and ur passport to a branch of Bradesco. They will seek confirmation from central and bingo 20 minutes !!!

Worked for us !

JB

Hi JDP, I assume as you live here you are applying for, and are being granted, a permanent visa.

There's the rub. Others who want to open bank accounts do not have permanent visas. Not possible without at least the protocol of a permanent visa.

 

[debzor]

Hi heres an idea ................... once your application for your visa goes in, go to the Policia Federal and get them to do a 'declaracao', take this along with your CPF and proofs and ur passport to a branch of Bradesco. They will seek confirmation from central and bingo 20 minutes !!!

Worked for us !

JB

Oh, and please, do not mention total service from Brazilian banks and 20 minutes in the same sentence...!