Magaprojects in the NE collapsing

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lutjebroek

New Member
Shouldn't the headlines be that they collapsed years ago, like around 2007/2008?
At that time, the investors were probably still advertising the projects with David Beckham, Ruben Barricello and Ronaldo and whoever more. I have seen no signs of even the slightest doubt. Or did you?

All the projects mentioned in the reports have been discussed a lot on these forums.
Forum. Singular. The forum where you get people banned if they disagree. That is not a discussion in my book, I am sorry to say.

But anyway, one example:
http://www.propertyforum.com/forum/brazil-property/7435-jacuma-beach-resort-6.html

Did you warn people to walk away fast ?
 
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lutjebroek

New Member
In april 2009 you wrote:

"I am very upbeat about the project and I am very happy that things have started moving on the site as we have a sold quite a few units there."

Mind you, I am not trying to chase you down as the one that did everything wrong, because indeed nobody could foresee the wordwide credit crunch, failing banks and economic downfall.

However, I feel that people must learn from mistakes made in the past. Whether or not you want to see it as mistakes, there were big failures in touristic investments before, in Spain. Resulting even in banks failing (f.ex. ING) etc. Megalomanic projects by (foreign) investors with money of others, overinvesting and simple greed.

These practices have moved over to Brazil, it seems.

These events are not on their own. I did follow similar projects in Ceara (N of Fortalaza) were very similar things happened. I understood that many of the projects there were stalled because the (preliminary) building license was not renewed. There were also unconfirmed rumours of corrupption, although the "victims" maintained that it was a political game and Brazilian bureaucracy. (as if you just can remove a sanddune in Europe).

All in all, certainly with the melagomanic projects under discussion, the market expectations were way too high. We must point out that the tourism figures from Europe are declining over the past 5 years or so. That is because (mainly) Brazil has become expensive, flights are becoming more expensive, and 7 - 10 hours (or more if connections fail, they do regulary) travel time is long.

But if also small projects become difficult to sell there must be more to it.
 
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lutjebroek

New Member
Robh,

I actually thought there were more users of this forum, besides you and me. That is why I took the trouble to translate the article.

I do not know why there would be a misunderstanding about the title. It is the translation of the title of the article, it did not reflect my opinion.
I mentioned Spain because your company was (or is?) operating from Marbella. That means that the market and the way it operated is known to you. Even if there are projects delivered and sold, that does not mean it was a succes for the endbuyers.

Now you come up with a reference to something near Florianopolis. Thats about 4 or 5000 km away from Natal, so I guess you also feel that the investments there are becoming near worthless?

That was in fact the only thing I wanted to point out. The projects around Natal failed, and there is no indication they will ever be finished.
That article was from 2010 btw, nothing new. Nevertheless several websites are still (more or less) active. And more than one sales/promoting site (including yours) refers to the new and miraculously growing airport of Natal as the reason to invest there, the hotels and golfcourses and restaurants (all on paper, they exist only virtual) as the reason to be there etc. etc.
 
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lutjebroek

New Member
I don't think we reference the new Natal airport as the biggest in the universe on our site,
You did not indeed. What you say is :
"Natal to have the largest commercial airport in Latin America"

This may be dream, but that can only become true IF that airport will indeed become an international HUB. IF all those promised billions of foreign money are invested, IF the millions of jobs are created, IF all thousands of houses and appartments for use by foreign toeristst are build and sold, IF all Hotels of high standards have been build, and so on.
And not to forget: IF the airlines see viable and profiteable routes from the main cities in Europe and the US to Natal. They don´t profit on the bottomprices of the cattleclass, unless they can go there with a filled A380.

There are a lot of IF´s here...

but it is certainly being built and the pace has picked up. This is the same for the stadium in Natal.
Yes, but the wordchamionships are only one month, after that it is probably over.
 
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dhoskings

New Member
At that time, the investors were probably still advertising the projects with David Beckham, Ruben Barricello and Ronaldo and whoever more. I have seen no signs of even the slightest doubt. Or did you?


Forum. Singular. The forum where you get people banned if they disagree. That is not a discussion in my book, I am sorry to say.
I am not sure why so many people are unhappy with foreigners building projects in Brazil.

As far as I can see the quality of what a lot of foreign developers produce way outshines what the local developers create.

I heard a great saying the other day about Brazil: "Despite the best efforts of Brazilians, Brazil is still a beautiful place". If you walk around Rio especially, you will quickly see this to be true.
 
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lutjebroek

New Member
As far as I can see the quality of what a lot of foreign developers produce way outshines what the local developers create.
You are aware it is an opinion, not a fact? Does the name Niemeyer ring a bell? Ever been in Brasilia, or Bela Horizonte, or...
And as far as I know, things are designed and build by local architects and contractors. Am I wrong?

I heard a great saying the other day about Brazil: "Despite the best efforts of Brazilians, Brazil is still a beautiful place".
That was obviously said by a foreigner.

If you walk around Rio especially, you will quickly see this to be true.
You must be talking about the outskirts etc.
 
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RainerR

New Member
You must be talking about the favelas ...

I am not sure why so many people are unhappy with foreigners building projects in Brazil.

As far as I can see the quality of what a lot of foreign developers produce way outshines what the local developers create.

I heard a great saying the other day about Brazil: "Despite the best efforts of Brazilians, Brazil is still a beautiful place". If you walk around Rio especially, you will quickly see this to be true.
 
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sven

New Member
I am not sure why so many people are unhappy with foreigners building projects in Brazil.

As far as I can see the quality of what a lot of foreign developers produce way outshines what the local developers create.
They really build the same crap as Brazilians do, except of a handful that just build one home at the time to sell and then move on to the next project.

Gringo builders offer the same ROI or even better than their Brazilian counterparts, that must mean they use the same builders, and cut the same corners.

I have seen inumerous projects by foreign investors try to circumvent environmental regulations all in the name of profit. They usually try to build something 20 stories high in the middle of some pristine beach or tear down historic buildings to build something ugly.

I'm not saying they are much different from brazilian developers with eyes only on profit.

I heard a great saying the other day about Brazil: "Despite the best efforts of Brazilians, Brazil is still a beautiful place"
If you walk around Rio especially, you will quickly see this to be true.
As a gringo, you'll only see 10% of Rio, and I can assure you that most of what gringos do not see is not beautiful at all.

I don't see how building a 20 story building on a beach in Pipa would keep Brazil beautiful.
 
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dhoskings

New Member
You are aware it is an opinion, not a fact? Does the name Niemeyer ring a bell? Ever been in Brasilia, or Bela Horizonte, or...
And as far as I know, things are designed and build by local architects and contractors. Am I wrong?



That was obviously said by a foreigner.



You must be talking about the outskirts etc.
Go to Buenos Aires and most other big South American cities and you will see that unlike Brazil they didnt just bulldoze their history to build ugly towers for quick bit of profit using outdated building methods from the 1920's.

Unfortunately Niemeyer is the lone exception to an extremely large amount of unexceptional architects.

The only bits of Rio and SP for that matter that are nice are the bits where the super rich live, the rest are just wastelands. Brasilia was probably nice 20 years ago, now it is just outdated.
 
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dhoskings

New Member
As a gringo, you'll only see 10% of Rio, and I can assure you that most of what gringos do not see is not beautiful at all.

I don't see how building a 20 story building on a beach in Pipa would keep Brazil beautiful.
That is my point exactly!!
 
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lutjebroek

New Member
Unfortunately Niemeyer is the lone exception to an extremely large amount of unexceptional architects.
Likewise is Le Corbusier in Europe.

The only bits of Rio and SP for that matter that are nice are the bits where the super rich live, the rest are just wastelands.
I wonder what you try to say here. You find Alta Leblon a nice place to live? Or the skyline on the beach a good example of fine archtecture?

Brasilia was probably nice 20 years ago, now it is just outdated.
Outdated by WHAT? Or WHO? You only express opinions you can´t substantiate. (BTW Brasilia was build around 1960, and Niemeyer build another building there only a few years ago)
 
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JMBroad

New Member
I think that the report shown in the video is very misleading. They talk about the David Beckham development then say that construction started and sales started and that the developer "ran off with the money from sales". As far as I know (please let me know if you know any different) the Beckham development never started sales and also never started construction.

I find it interesting that an accountant is interviewed "João Montenegro" and says "Foreign investors arrived thinking all they needed to do was buy some land and start building but it doesn't work that way". I must say that there is absolutely no love lost between myself and the developers of the Beckham development however in all my conversations with them I never got the feeling that they didn't know there was a licensing process. In fact of all the mega developments which were advertised but never happened, I don't know of any which didn't know there was a licensing process.

They then claim that Grupo Sanchez was building a development in Maxaranguape and they show some images of what looks like an abandoned half built development. They say there is no plan to continue construction and that the landscape is forever destroyed.

But the images they are showing are not from Maxaranguape, (edit: well, I suppose it is in the municipality of Maxaranguape although it isn't near the town itself) nor was Grupo Sanchez ever involved with this development (or any other development in Maxaranguape as far as I know). The development they are showing in the images does have a rescue plan in place so they got the name of the development wrong, the location wrong, and just about every other fact which could be pertinent wrong. Journalism at its worst...

I'll take a look at the article now and comment in a moment. (Edit 2: The newspaper article is much more factual and actually makes sense. As Rob mentioned earlier, all of the developments mentioned therein have been discussed on the forum in a lot of detail by a great many people: Jacumã Beach Resort, Grande Natal Golf, Lagoa do Coelho and Cabo São Roque and are not really a surprise. Especially when we see that the article itself came out in March 2010 which was when most of them were already being discussed on the forums I believe).

Regardless of the terribly shoddy reporting shown in the video, the fact is that while there have been mega projects which were marketed in the north of Natal which have damaged the reputation, there have been smaller developments which have been sold, finished and delivered. It is a shame that these mega projects cause so much negative publicity for the rest of the developers who are actually delivering developments.
 
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dhoskings

New Member
Likewise is Le Corbusier in Europe.



I wonder what you try to say here. You find Alta Leblon a nice place to live? Or the skyline on the beach a good example of fine archtecture?



Outdated by WHAT? Or WHO? You only express opinions you can´t substantiate. (BTW Brasilia was build around 1960, and Niemeyer build another building there only a few years ago)
What I was trying to say is the only places in Brazil kept clean and well maintained are where the very rich live.

Besides Niemeyer's creations (who is very overrated) there is no such thing as fine architecture in Brazil. The examples that used to exist were bulldozed a long time ago to build more apartment blocks using Soviet building designs and methods.

As I said before Brazil remains a beautiful country despite the best efforts of Brazilians to ruin it.
 
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RainerR

New Member
overrated

Overrated by whom?

What I was trying to say is the only places in Brazil kept clean and well maintained are where the very rich live.

Besides Niemeyer's creations (who is very overrated) there is no such thing as fine architecture in Brazil. The examples that used to exist were bulldozed a long time ago to build more apartment blocks using Soviet building designs and methods.

As I said before Brazil remains a beautiful country despite the best efforts of Brazilians to ruin it.
 
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Mineiro

Member
If the translation was for me then thanks, but I didn't need it. The problem was I misunderstood the point you are trying to make because of the thread title.

Is your point that you think that all mega projects will fail? You quote Spain, which offers plenty of pre crash examples where they have succeeded. Brazil also has numerous examples of mega projects that have worked very well, I had lunch at one yesterday, namely Jurerê Internacional.

Regards,
Rob.
I wonder why you didn't have lunch at one of the many projects you were trying to flog in Pipa? How manny of the projects that you were selling, were actually finished?
 
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Mineiro

Member
If the translation was for me then thanks, but I didn't need it. The problem was I misunderstood the point you are trying to make because of the thread title.

Is your point that you think that all mega projects will fail? You quote Spain, which offers plenty of pre crash examples where they have succeeded. Brazil also has numerous examples of mega projects that have worked very well, I had lunch at one yesterday, namely Jurerê Internacional.

Regards,
Rob.
You cannot be trying to compare Jurere International to the half baked, hocus pocus projects being bandied about the North East.
 
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lutjebroek

New Member
I have the impression that Rob is a bit confused about identities of posters.

Unless your name is Maarten too, that is. That would be a coincidence.

Rob also seems to be confused about the subject of this treat. It is not about having a free lunch (TINSTAAFL) but about the many failed project around Natal, where he used to have a sales office.
 
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Mineiro

Member
I have the impression that Rob is a bit confused about identities of posters.

Unless your name is Maarten too, that is. That would be a coincidence.

Rob also seems to be confused about the subject of this treat. It is not about having a free lunch (TINSTAAFL) but about the many failed project around Natal, where he used to have a sales office.
I have to agree Rob does seem a little confused especially when it suits his line of argument. As to the failed projects, of which there are so many, Rob just puts it down to a little hard luck and the naughty United States for having a financial crisis in 2008. When the reason is nearer to the endemic corruption and failed judiciary here in Brazil. You'd of been better off buying the Eiffel Tower, at least it's been built.
 
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