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how many sold?

Discussion in 'Morocco Property' started by alfonsooo, Jul 23, 2007.

  1. alfonsooo

    alfonsooo New Member

    hi all,

    i have purchased on Med Saidia and i cannot seem to get a straight answer to what i thought would be a relatively easy question:
    What percentage of the resort as a whole has been sold?

    I know there are many different areas, some not released yet, but of the ones released how are they selling? - this is fundermentally important to the future of the resort and our investment as until all are sold out prices will not rise (unless u've got THE prime property on your particular site)

    Anyone know the answer?
     
  2. gbdahew

    gbdahew New Member

    Hi there- I have just reserved on The Greens this week and am monitoring it myself be printing and comparing the availability list every couple of days.Not ideal but at least it shoews its moving, 4 reserved since Thur and 2 exchanged. I have found it hard to a a straight answer on a lot of things but am trying not to get nervous yet. did u ask the bank guarentee question ?
    I got as much flannel as my kids give me when I question them !!
     
  3. localhelp

    localhelp New Member

    Hi all,
    I do not know the answer to how many have been sold, but I believe that resales may hold the key. I have friends who wish to sell both a V2 villa and a penthouse in AP6. If these are unable to be sold quickly, at a fair price. Then the others in non residential areas will surely struggle. At the moment they are both receiving no interest. comments please.
     
  4. alfonsooo

    alfonsooo New Member

    you've hit to nail on the head localhelp - i dont think med saidia will sell out for years, if at all, thus prices will never rise on any but a few of the best placed properties - my money has been tied up for 18mths and not a penny earned - its turned out to be a terrible investment.
     
  5. localhelp

    localhelp New Member

    Alfonsooo,
    I have always thought that it was a good investment, and I still do. The problem has always been with timescales. There will, I believe be a profit for my friends in the long term, mainly because they chose residential over touristic. The cloud of mist that hangs over the interpretation of the law concerning touristic properties needs to be cleared and then they too, will (in my opinion ) increase in value.
    But in the meantime, there are no buyers for re-sale villas and penthouses in AP6. Why?
     
  6. alfonsooo

    alfonsooo New Member

    Its not that theres no buyers for resales...theres no buyers fullstop! You are right - the delays are fueling the uncertainty, along with Fadesa being utterly useless in every aspect. Couple this with not actually being able to fly there directly (still no word from airlines when they plan to start flying from UK to Oudja airport) and the slowing of the global housing market in general...all this adds up to people not buying im afraid.
     
  7. localhelp

    localhelp New Member

    Couple of points. I would assume that most property buyers worldwide, would abandon the uk on a temporary basis, as there is unlikely to be profits there for a while. So therefore may well put their money into emerging markets, like Morocco.
    Secondly you are absolutly right about flights from UK. This is a major issue and I hope that if the Barcelo Hotel opens as planned, flights will follow soon after. ( I have mailed Ryanair, Easyjet and British airways about flights, No Replies from any).
    My original mail, was a kind of challange to the agents who contribute to this forum. To perhaps give us an update, and answer your original question about how much has been sold. None of them yet has bitten my arm off to get to The V2 villa or the AP6 penthouse. Why?
     
  8. alfonsooo

    alfonsooo New Member

    Because the UK housing market has stopped increasing people are not taking any equity out of their homes to buy properties abroad.... anyway, we are getting away form the subject, the reason agents are not telling us how many properties they've sold is because they havent sold many of course! So the last thing they want are re sales.
     
  9. Investy

    Investy Senior Member

    Alfonse

    Even in the UK there is nearly always a number of properties on most new developments that remain unsold, however these sell once the place is fully built.

    It's no surprise to me that stock reamins unsold on Saidia. I'd explain this in terms simple Human psychology.
    It is well documented that even scientists faced with a new idea are very slow to accept it, indeed studies show the bulk of older scientists NEVER accept new ideas as thier subconsious is absolutely 'hooked' into the existing ideas, themselves once new and unlikely seeming.

    Property is exactly the same, because Human psychology is exactly the same in terms of how people robotic subconscious controls everything they do, although 99.9% of people would not think this applies to them.

    Saidia is a very new destination and currently only for the few who can accept a good degree of uncertainty. The logic underpinning thier brain computation is in my opinion robust and for us early dare devils rewards should be attractive.

    Unsold stock may well hang around now until the resort starts being used by en - mass by tourists - it is then that the remaining stock will sell I suspect.

    I always come back to basics, when I start to feel jittery;

    1) Is demand for tourism growing?
    Answer = yes and not just from Brits but from Europe, former Soviet nations and the middle East

    2) Is supply of beds keeping pace with Morccan tourism growth?
    A = no way according to the official stats

    3) What will the end user experience?
    A = I think he will be hard pushed to find anything like Saidia. If he wants masses of things to do in a self contained quality enviroment with a beach and reportedly the Meds biggest marina

    4) Ask yourself this........ Where can you go right now and get winter sun, within 3 hours and have a large beach, 3 golf courses, massive marina, unrivaled sports and leisure facilities, the use of 11 other 5* developments (for LJDG Clubcard holders), 500 quality shops, medina, western supermarkets, bowling, cinemas, amphitheatres etc etc?

    I struggle to find anywhere with this breadth and depth.

    5) Renting - It seems to me a great effort has been disharged in order to get the resort to attract year round trade and the fact there will be onsite dedicated rental agents and 11 hotels feeding us with future lets, gives me great confidence.


    6) The Kings showcase to the world
    How many other developments in the Med would have this kind of impetus and motivation behind them?
    A = none
     
  10. localhelp

    localhelp New Member

    Re-point 4
    The beach and the sun have always been there. All the other things do not exist yet, so therefore you can't say now.
    Having spent today at the border with Melilla for three hours. I can't agree about the three hours away yet either.
    I am a person who thinks the site will be a success, but don't say now because its not helpful.
     
  11. RedRak

    RedRak New Member

    Investy and everybody else,
    I would like to hear your take on the new report released by environment compaigners and wildlife groupes from Morocco and Europe. It basicly states that a tragedy is unfolding where construction firms are moving in on some of the last unspoilt stretches of Mediterranean coastline in the search for profits.I'm adding 2 quotes from a news artical by Reuters that concerns me a lot "ESCO's Benata said mega-projects such as Saidia were out of fashion in Europe -- Spain had begun copying a strategy pioneered on the French Riviera to reclaim land, demolish buildings and regenerate the ecosystem", "We produced a flooding scenario which shows most of the Fadesa complex could be under water by 2050 as global warming raises sea levels," said Maria Snoussi, earth sciences professor at Mohamed V University in Rabat. Scary stuff, isn't it.
    I understand that if we keep doing what we're doing, Belgium+Holand+Manhatan will all be under water possiblly before Saidia. But I would like to know if such a compaign would have any negative impact on your investments...Thanks
     
  12. Investy

    Investy Senior Member

    I've been a keen naturtalist and enviromentalist as long as I can remember so investing in Saidia was a dilema for me.

    I used to jump on my high horse at every potential enviromental disturbance, however I've come round to the notion that there are often benefits to wildlife from Mans altering the landscape.

    Example; A knee jerk enviromentalist (me a few years back) would have said roads have an impact effect on natural habitats and bio diversity, however, the reverse is true. Road side verges are packed full of wild flora and fauna, and offer 'corridors' for wildlife that sterile mono - culture farmers fields did not.

    Saidia - it's impossible for me to asses the negatives and positives, but one way or another developments like this will be built as the Moroccan population seeks economic improvement so that thier kids might one day enjoy the standard of living we take for granted.
    I would expect there to be benefits, for example there are many water features such as rivers and lakes planned, and also the golf courses themselves will create a lush enviroment for mini beasts. Golf courses provide large areas of 'rough' grass that are a haven for nature.

    GLOBAL WARMING; I was banging on about this 25 years ago - a lonely experience I can tell you as almost no one back then knew about it.
    I'm afraid it's absolutely enivatable - every child born adds a massive footprint and world birth rates are exploding so there really is nothing we as individuals can do that will make even 0,5% difference. No doubt your computer has a transformer that is plugged in all night even though switched off.

    The only hope is that ALL fuel will become carbon neutral and that other offsetting measures are introduced such as giant reflectors in deserts, carbon sinks into oceans, phyto plankton encouragement, growing forsts, roof fields (Rolls Royce has one) etc.

    FLOODING THE MED; - I would imagine this will not be allowed to happen. Many systems could be put in place to cope with sea level rises which might include a damn accross the Med entrance, water channelled into the Sahara and so on.
     
  13. Ulpian

    Ulpian New Member

    The trouble with these huge developments is that they depend entirely on mass tourism. If oil continues to rise in price, as it will, travel will become too expensive for the less well off, and the better off will be able to pick and choose. The European housing market has stalled, and will go into recession, so planning on future equity release and property confidence is a mug's fantasy.

    I'd guess the better off, who are always with us, will go for the more exclusive developments. All these mega facilities under construction, with any number of shops, marinas etc., will require massive numbers of travellers. Where will they come from? A partly deserted resort is always depressing. Russians were mentioned, but they go for all-inclusive holidays in large hotels, at present mostly in Turkey. All they seem to want is to sun and swim, and never leave the hotels, for anything. Hardly fun to be around, and not much good for the local economy. Often they buy the hotels as well, with a local partner out of legal necessity.

    I would always buy where there is a solid local rental market, such as an established town with charm and some modern facilities as well. This way you can have tourist rentals, or local long-lets if the tourist market stalls. And you can always live there yourself, long term, which would be a horrible prospect on a complex.
     
  14. Ulpian

    Ulpian New Member

    As to the environment, which is mentioned in the previous posts, Morocco is very water short, and has one of the fastest increasing populations in the world. The environment is very stressed indeed. Yes, the country needs jobs, but complexes don't provide that many once the initial building is completed.
    I fear that new technologies won't come along in time to prevent popular unrest, as cornfields in the surplus countries are increasingly given over to fuel production and food staple prices rise. There have already been civil protests in Egypt and Tunisia, and I read Morocco too, as well as in other parts of the world, about the rising prices of necessities. Australia is unable to export much wheat this year, and the US has become a net food importer for many products - something unheard of ten years ago. And Canada isn't the breadbasket it once was either. There are too many people. Better buy in a country that can easily feed and water itself too - hungry people can get very angry! Another consideration...
     
  15. The Soup Dragon

    The Soup Dragon Senior Member

    Flights will likely start to Oujda once enough of the resort is up and running. Rynair were selling flights to Oujda just over a year ago, but they pulled the routes when they realised there was little demand. (It wasn’t surprising that routes were pulled. It was surprising that routes were introduced when Saidia was so far from being complete.) I’ve heard that Rynair are purchasing one of the hotels at Saidia. If that’s the case we can be confident that they will fly there.

    RedRak’s remark about the possibility of Saidia eventually being under water is something that I think most investors in the area have either missed or dismissed. In my eyes it is a long term risk. I’m in for the short to medium term, so it’s a risk that I’m happy with.

    Ulpian. There will be considerably more jobs in the area once Saidia is up and running. The same applies for other areas where tourism will grow. The King wouldn’t have made tourism his top priority if he didn’t see it as being the way forward for his country. With it infrastructure and accessibility is improving. This can only help attract more business to the country. Perhaps business of the type you mentioned.
     
  16. RedRak

    RedRak New Member

    The Soup Dragon, it's always refreshing to hear some positive analysis from you. I have the impression you missed my point on this one: I might invest on a piece of land that will for sure go under water 20 years from now. But I was asking everyone's opinion on the negative attention that Med Saidia is getting TODAY thanks to the environment campaigners and what effect would it have on our investment.
     
  17. The Soup Dragon

    The Soup Dragon Senior Member

    RedRak. I don’t think they will have much impact on the future development of Saidia or our investments there. The risks that these campaigners highlight / bring are not new. Namely,
    1) Global warming / rising sea levels.
    2) Applying pressure for cost of budget flights to rise sooner rather than later (and perhaps for extent of increase to be greater.)
    Of course, I'd prefer if they didn't single out Saidia when making their point.
     
  18. Investy

    Investy Senior Member

    With respect your reality tunnel seems overly narrow. We are all the better for trying to see beyond the confines of our robotised reality tunnels that largely reflect the brain imprints we were given in early life by our guardians or other key individuals.

    For example you claim oil price rises will eat into the supply of tourists. I would say this is a knee jerk 'obvious' conclusion but ill thought out. Surely we should have learned by now that Humans adapt to new realities. Flight prices have fallen thanks to low cost carriers, so a period of rises wont have much effect, just the way things are.

    Furthermore new fuels will become available, based upon crops and also bio engineered organisms. One plant in Dupont, USA, is already growing trillions of organisms that suck in CO2 and expell ethanol and other usefull fuels.
    I have bought some flants 4km from the worlds largest biofuel plant in East Germany so these new fuels are'nt some fantasy, they are the new reality.

    Also you keep missing the point about the growth in tourism. People accross Europe are getting richer, from the Irish to Estonians, Slovenians to Russians.
    All these masses demand new product.

    Saidia will have 11 branded hotels. The first will open this summer - the Barcelo Platignum range model. These companies wouldnt invest money in a ghost resort.

    I think we all should try and look into the sum of Human endeavour with a little more thought and not resort to Daily Mail knee jerk thinking ("Russians ALWAYS stay in all inclusive hotels").
     
  19. javedkhan54

    javedkhan54 New Member

    Not impressed with Mediterrania Saidia...

    I did a lot of research last year on these complexes and decided not to invest finally. I know most of you won't want to hear this, given you have sunk money and noone wants negative news, however, it may be instructive for someone considering investing...

    There are simply too many risks with these new developments in the middle of nowhere, long, medium and short term. Investment is all about mitigating these to your advantage, and too many are out of the investors control. Without writing an essay on it, some of my concerns were...

    The complexes are dependent on very high volumes of tourists - with macro-economics going against this trend and a number of other countries (throughout the mediterranean) competing along with successful complexes attracting congregations and others seeing little, this expectation is unrealistic.

    The new king faced a political hot potato - his father was disliked and high hopes were pinned on him to deliver radical changes of prosperity - something very few rulers of muslim countries (without the luxury of massive natural resources) have managed successfully... he has little alternative ideas about what to do with morocco and hopes that tourism will sort out the mess despite the cultural and religious tensions it will bring about (contributing to political instability in the medium term)... He hopes that borrowings and investment will build a momentum in the tourism industry along with a lot of publicity whilst hiding the nastier and brutish issues of lack of freedoms in the country, pervasive security services all over the place, regular and systematic torture if you end up on the wrong side of the law along with corruption and bribery (which you will see reported on a daily basis)...

    Though the govt is doing its utmost to push the country down this route, there is strong opposition to it (morocco being a muslim country isn't too impressed with the prostitution, drinking, debauchery etc that have turned the southern tourist cities into areas of national disgrace, despite the previous kings promises of wealth for all and modernisation!)... I wouldn't rely on the king's backing to eliminate risks of suicide bombings, attacks and hostility. Just one bombing incident is all that it takes to clear the whole region - look at bali's situation - and investments will sink like a stone! None of the agent's I spoke to could deal with this point at all - they seemed to be in a state of denial despite such attacks already having happened in Casablanca.

    There is no secondary domestic market which the locals can participate in - for them these new prices are astronomical, (given the developments are targetted at fleecing europeans they are more than treble the prices of similar developments in Tangiers!), financing is not generally available and incomes are ridiculously low, even by third world standards. They also would not buy anything in this region as there is no domestic industry or work there!

    I finally invested in Tangiers - its properties are well below market value, there is a massive rental demand and prices are growing strongly resulting in capital gains of over 50% in the last two years consecutively on well selected properties (and with gross rental income of 25% in the first year on a rental property, 17% in year 2 due to the property price increases and impossibility of rent keeping pace)...Even with all the risks, the city is trebling in size and the population is growing like crazy - not enough housing for all along with commercial free port and deep sea port developments (with tourism as a bonus!) means this market has all the right ticks for investment... You just need to do your homework on the agents you use.

    The key to property investment (i guess like any other business) is ultimately having ready customers to sell to who can afford to pay the asking price - something sadly lacking in these resorts...
     
  20. Investy

    Investy Senior Member


    'Middle of nowhere' is a pajoritive term designed to imply 'no one will visit'. Give people enough reasons to visit a complex and they will go. I have'nt found any single development in Spain, Turkey or Portugal that offers the breadth of leisure facilities that Saidia will.

    You imply macro economics will put pay to high tourist numbers.
    Firstly I would say this ignores the big picture - where people are getting richer, from Irish, to Russians, Croats to Poles and of course Brits and Scandinavians etc. Furthermore the middle eastern middle class is growing fast.
    The noise of a temporary credit crunch will amount to nothing in 5 years time and I guarantee tourism numbers to Morocco will continue there ascent.

    11 hotel operators will be onsite in Saidia, I'm sure they would not invest without having done thier homework. The vast purpose built nice shiny marina will exert considerable attraction.


    Whilst I recognise your reasons for investing in Tangiers I am bound to point out that the end user for Saidia will be of a different disposition to the folk you have in mind.

    They will be people who want to 'get away from it all' yet be in a secure modern setting with all the facilities they could ever want including a large (already built) on site dedicated hospital.

    Think about end users that will like the idea of a vast modern marina safe and well away from the hustle of a city.

    FRENCH RETIREES - my research confirms there is a significant demand form French retirees wanting a place in the sun, and Morocco is top of thier list.
    Now some might want to live in Tangiers but I bet many will prefer the relative security and peace of Saidia away from smog, noise and heat, set onto a peaceful golf course by the ocean.

    Furthermore the western supermarkets, 500 shops and large dedicated fully staffed hospital will be of considerable appeal to Western retirees.

    Terrorists - yes a possibility, but hey ho life goes on. Note the many terrorism events in Egypt and Turkey made no impression on the tourism or property markets, people soon forget and life goes on.
     
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