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Golfing in North East Brasil

Discussion in 'Brazil Property' started by michaelbush, Nov 6, 2007.

  1. michaelbush

    michaelbush New Member

    Guess you have hit it on the head!!! :D
  2. JMBroad

    JMBroad New Member

    Well, as GW has taken up the devil's advocates banner on golf in Brasil I'll take up the other side and be just as extreme although as I said in earlier posts, I'm not sure either extreme will happen, I think it'll be somewhere in between.

    Not all golfers go on 3 - 4 day golfing holidays. Although you may not believe it I've even seen a woman playing golf before. Hard to believe obviously, however if you think outside the box for a second, some women play who are married!!! So all the comments about "can't tell the wife I'm off to Brazil for a golfing holiday" although they may apply to you, may not apply to your neighbour who plays golf WITH his wife. And plenty of them play golf on holiday. Having worked in the tourism industry for a long time, i've seen couples book a three week holiday and play golf every day, twice a day for two weeks with only two courses to chose from. The week in between was for walking and exploring.

    Other nations play golf too. I know, it's almost as hard to believe as women playing golf, but Germans play golf, Swedes play golf, Norwegians and Danes play golf. And in some amazingly unbelievable instances, foreign Women play golf!!! So they may even visit with their wives. In some countries, Golf is a sport which can be played in comfortable conditions during only 3 or 4 months a year. If those golfers have a chance (with their spouses) to visit a tropical or subtropical country where there is a decent golf course, they may chose to do so for more than a 3 day visit.

    Winter for those countries is winter for most golfing destinations for Europe at the moment.

    In January, a couple from Sweden who have been dying to play golf since it started snowing and raining heavily last October are planning their holidays. Back to Spain or Portugal again or try somewhere new. Last year during their trip to the Algarve they were unlucky and it rained for 12 of the 14 days they were there and because they forgot to book well in advance, the earliest they managed to get tee-off times was 12h00 most days so they were only able to get 18 holes a day. Especially because the course was so packed that it was unbelievably slow going.

    If only there was another option... Somewhere where they are guaranteed to have hot weather and sunshine and where there are very few people on the course? Somewhere where they may spend a little more money getting to but where they will spend very little money once arrived, as the cost of living is so low. Somewhere completely different from the normal Spain or Portugal. Somewhere exotic and where the courses are practically deserted, so they don't have to get up at the crack of dawn to be able to play 36 holes a day.

    As for security on the courses that's something which happens in Spain and Portugal too.

    As for the remark that golfers only go on all inclusive holidays to cheap destinations that is so stupidly ridiculous that I'm not even going to acknowledge the remark other than assuming it was a failed attempt at humour.
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2007
  3. KDJX

    KDJX New Member

    Winter for those countries is winter for most golfing destinations for Europe at the moment.

    This is key point for me. Sunshine golf in the winter is limited.
    The Med is OK but weather can still be variable.
    Canaries: yawn
    Madera: perhaps but windy and variable
    Cape Verde: promising but will be like golfing on a pumice stone
    Morroco: Promises much. Good accessability and better weather especially the further south you go.
    Florida:The main competition perhaps.

    It will all be in the marketing and how well the Brazil tourist board promtes this over the next few years. Naturally they have to have a few classy courses to actually promote.
  4. JMBroad

    JMBroad New Member

    Madeira - Windy and variable

    Well not really... Weather is variable, yes... although it's normally a lot better than the UK, you can be unlucky and get a week of bad weather, even though "bad weather in winter in Madeira is like a great day in UK". Windy - not really windy at all in Madeira. The issue with Madeira was that there were no low-cost flights there. That has changed and low-cost flights are now available. But there are only two golf courses in Madeira. During the winter season, together with the locals and the tourists, the courses can be pretty much fully booked. During the summer the conditions are as I described it, hardly anyone on the course.
  5. Golfingworld

    Golfingworld New Member

    Mr Broad, ok let's see it another way and call it "long haul golf". The cost of getting your clubs there even if you can get a flight is ridiculous..I met a couple in ZA where BA asked for £250 excess baggage charge! Thomson currently weigh your handbaggage and screw every penny out of you. TAP wanted €80 for a small extra bag recently at LHR. There is also the current BA ban on carry sports the press all about it! What they are doing is paving the way to make excessive charges for various items. let's say a minimum costof £50 €75 for many golfers will go en masse frm Europe/USA to Brazil for a pecifi golfing holdiay....women or foreigners....answer very few. The mass golfing market is 3/5 days only mainly male..guess 90%. It is not a family or couple concept more than about 10% of the market. Yes people might play golf when there, yes they may hire clubs for a day but this doesn't make Brazil a golf destination at all. And, anyone who thinks that they can rent out their off plan apartment to golfers is deluding themselves. Airlines have such a massive stranglehold on what happens it is unreal....they decide how and if the market performs and when. There is no way I would struggle to Gatwick with my clubs, pay £50 extra for them, then rent buggies and pay maybe £30 per would just not be good value. Small groups may go there but all these golf vacation companies, especially for couple use hotels and not apartments. Just look at golf holidays like green card golf that do exotic golf holidays rarely apartments. So even if the golfers turn up there will be very few renting so this "positive spin" angle is also not viable.
  6. deedee1

    deedee1 New Member

    :)Hi all,

    Found an article about golf in brazil makes very interesting reading!

    Although the article is 2 years old it just proves how golf has been increasing dramatically and just imagine what the figures would have been like the last 2 years also- going even more crazy!!!

    As for the whole golfers only take or have short golf trips away thats ridiculous!!!

    Golfers take normal holidays aswell as golfing weekendds away and even on holiday they will want to go somewhere that has a golf course aswell!!!

    You cant say that people only play golf in mild conditions and wont play in places where its hot???????

    So basically your saying that people DONT PLAY or are DETERED from playing golf in asia,middle east, caribbean, africa, usa and south america?????????

    Come on europe isnt the only golfing destination in the world you know????

    People are more tolerate to heat and weather conditions when they are on holiday- because they are on holiday thats the point- its a sycological thing!!!!!

    Golf growing fast in soccer-mad Brazil - Golf -

    Take care-D :)
  7. Golfingworld

    Golfingworld New Member

    Dee, have you ever been to Dubai and played golf? Its hot let me tell you...very hot that you have to tee off at 6am sometimes. Brazil does not have a golf course on the coast north of Salvador and south of Belem. The golf mass market does not take normal holidays to play golf..not in general is is male/short break market. The other mix is a very small percentage...certainly a drop in the ocean in relation to the courses "allegedly" planned in RG. Cost is another issue, not only the excess for clubs onboard. As it time...winter golfers will not spend for 2weeks in Brazil when real golfers would rather spend for proper well known golf destinations such as S Carolina/ZA/Thailand from Europe. Brazilian golfers, you are 'aving a laugh! It will be 20 years before many in NE Brazil will travel to a Brazilian golf destination, if not longer. There might be a few locals taking it up as it will be a status symbol but they won't rent apartments. Bear in mind the whole ethos of selling off plan with golf is that it is an added plus to the value....yes nice to live on a golf course, providing you are not near a par three and have to put big nets up to protect yourself but anyone who says it will increase my price or rental potential is kidding themsleves and me! I am not joking about nets for protection. So many no golfers look at the plan and think "that's nice overlooking the green" and then they find themselves unable to sit on their patio as they are splattered with Pro V's hooked off the tee. Don't believe, walk around some courses in Spain and Portugal. One course I know near Huelva has two 4 story apartment blocks shrouded with green net to the residents can live in safety. Did you think of that when you bought next to the 9th green?
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2007
  8. JMBroad

    JMBroad New Member

    IAGTO - International Association of Golf Tour Operators promote holidays to and from over 73 countries worldwide. From Kenya to Cambodia and from China to Brazil (yes, they are already promoting golfing holidays in Brazil). I worked with them for Portugal, not just Madeira but all over mainland portugal too.

    There are currently 6 tour operators operating into Brazil hosting a variety of golf packages in every region of Brazil and in several different states both in North Brazil and Northeast Brazil. In the northeast currently the only states offering golf packages are in Pernambuco and Bahia, however there are already golfing holidays available in both those states.

    Just Google IAGTO for more info on the operators and courses on offer. This doesn't mean that they will be arranging packages into Natal and putting people up in rented apartments owned by british investors of course but it does mean that there is a market for golfing holidays in Brazil and more specifically in the North East of Brazil.
  9. Golfingworld

    Golfingworld New Member

    Don't worry I have looked at these operators and looked at Brasil some time ago...impractical for many for all the reasons I have stated. Cost and time the main ones. Brazil is not a mass market golf destination and never will be it is not a factor in the property market there..they claim it as a positive but this is just more spin. Normal tourists are nervous about Brazil let alone golfing groups who want to spend most of their time in The Navy Bar! Having said that, if they go to Brazil, they can cut out the middleman..or woman in this case!
  10. michaelbush

    michaelbush New Member

    Golf growing fast in soccer-mad Brazil - Golf - growing fast in soccer-mad Brazil - Golf -[/url]

    Having read the article it only serves to re-inforce the argument! Golf in Sao Paulo and Rio and other southern states is a totally different thing to golf in the tropical north east. Even the course close to Recife would be better by far to play on than up here in the north. We are now in summer, your winter and today it is again 34' C. Winter here is also hot - just more rain! and 25000 golfers spending an average of $6000 dollars each tells more - game for the brasilian rich in the south! Minimum wage here R$380 per month! Teachers on
    R$1200 per month!! population around 200million today. Natal population around 800,000. How many golf courses are planned in RN? Even if I were a golfer, nothing would convince me that the game belongs in this part of Brasil, or Dubai for that matter! But then many golfers I am sure would disagree, which is why I started the thread in the first place- I said it may prove controversial!!
  11. Golfingworld

    Golfingworld New Member

    Not at all the thread is interesting as it is property related...all these off plans are sold on the golf/spa/resort concept. Naive investers believe this nonsense and it is important that they are debated so everyone can make up their own mind. Personally, if I had £1500 to spend on a golf trip for 2 weeks, I'd go to Pebble Beach or South Africa..not to Brazil. Brazil has lots of things to offer but not golf. Only other plce I'd like to go is Casa de Campo "Teeth of the dog" course in Sto Domingo but there they want USD 150+ per round. Someone got the idea that golfers are rich and some bright spark will think the same in Brazil and price it out of the market....for that reason, as The Dragons would say.."I am out"!
  12. deedee1

    deedee1 New Member

    :)Hi all,

    I appreciate all the comments and DO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING regarding cost, heat and popularuty of golf in NE brazil!!

    But the fact remains that YES it will not become a golfing mecca destination but yes if you build it and promote it then people will come!!

    Not for 3-4 days golfing trips of course but will tie a little golf into their 2-3 week holiday with the family as this happens when people are keen golfers!!

    Being within a golf resort development and having property there will add value to your property as it always does anywhere around the world!!!

    I just find it obserd that people seem to think that brazil is an acception to lots of other similar countries!!

    The main golfers will be foreigners- no doubt about that!!!!


    Is the climate too HOT to play football or maintain the pitches or
    other outdoor sports also????
    Not from what I can make out!!!

    Take care-D :)
  13. JMBroad

    JMBroad New Member

    I on the other hand would much prefer to go to Brazil with my 1500 than to South Africa or Pebble Beach. But thank heavens for people with different tastes.
  14. Golfingworld

    Golfingworld New Member

    Dee, golf is very specific as a hobby and unless you are into it you don't get it. People don't take their families on golfing holidays...full stop. Golfers escape their families (and wives or husbands)) for golfing trips. The whole point here is that there is absulutely nothing in the golf concept that will add extra stimulus to the property market in NE Brazil apart from appearance of these developments. It will not increase property values, it will not suck in lots of tourists, just because there are 10 golf courses in Natal. Trust me, I (was) obsessed with golf and apart from Oz there is nowhere I haven't been to to play, hot and cold. The whole point of these debates is that all this offplan business is about hype and talking up the positives. Golf has been used as one of these, but if you've ever been to Murcia or Dubai, you'll know that either the residents haven't yet got a golf course to look at, or the golfers are trying to put out wit a pnuematic drill in the background. If you are a proper golfer and not just usingyour trip as an alibi then you go to proper golf courses and there aint one in NE Brazil and won't be for at least 10/15 years. Plus if Europeans want sun, sea villas and mainly golf then go to Sharm El Sheikh much cheaper and easier to get to. So, point is..more hype from the offplan "talking up" industry.
  15. michaelbush

    michaelbush New Member

    Hi Dee
    your point about other sports could be valid if they played in the heat of the day here in the north. They either play late afternoon or in the evenening, and whist the season does run into the hotter season, they play through their winter months on the whole. They also play Footsal - 5 a side on a covered small pitch. Basketball ,volley footvolley and of course it is hot, but these games are not 3-4 hours in blistering heat, and many are in covered protected form the sun, pitches. Brasil too, is not like other countries- it is huge and has several DIFFERENT CLIMATES, RANGING FROM TEMPERATE in the south TO EQUATORIAL in the north- which is why my opinion is, that for Brasil, the northern equatrial climate does not suit golf.
  16. deedee1

    deedee1 New Member

    :)Hi all,

    GW-It sounds like youve contradicted yourself here a bit as you compared brazil to egypt????

    You are saying it will not work in brazil but will in egypt why?????

    As egypt has also the blistering heat conditions also, aswell as being only a few hours flight difference !!

    People who go to egypt WILL INFACT go on real holidays and not 3-4 day golfing trips and will tie golf in with their holiday stay out there!!
    The reason I say this is that egypt currently does not have enough flights or flexibility in flights schedules to cater for short trips as it consists of weekly tour operators and package deals primarily!!!

    Also how do they mainatin their courses in the blistering heat??? After all egypt is a desert!!! As is dubai and morrocco to name a few!!!

    Take care-D:)
  17. JMBroad

    JMBroad New Member

    GW, YOU might go on golfing trips to escape your wife or family but that doesn't mean the rest of us do. I don't, and my parents don't, my brother doesn't and my uncle doesn't either. And having managed a golf hotel, I can tell you although we did get the occasional golfer on his own (or very rarely a group of ten golfers) those were the exception, not the rule. Now I'm not saying that that hotel was the typical golf hotel. But I've also been administrative manager for a resort golf course and once again, although we got "couples" of husbands at the course playing, more often than not their spouses were back at the hotel near the pool.

    We all have personal frames of reference. The hardest thing there is is to stop thinking like you normally do and consider how other people might think and how they might act. What makes you a specialist on the holiday trends of European golfers of all ages and backgrounds? You are a golfer? Well I'm a golfer, I've managed a 5 star resort golf hotel and a resort golf course and I don't believe for a second that all golfers use the game to make short haul trips to get away from their spouses for 3-4 days at a time ONLY. They may do that but they weren't doing ONLY that when I was running those businesses.

    Oh and if you are wondering how I know that, it's easy... It was a nightmare for us to try and get a lone golfer a tee-time in winter because the tee-times were almost all four-balls. In the summer no one cared because the courses were empty anyway so they could just stroll on out onto the course.
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2007
  18. deedee1

    deedee1 New Member

    :)Hi all,

    GW-I understand what your saying but broad is right!!!!

    You are pressuming that all golf trips are 3-4 day trips only when that is not the case!!!

    My family are all keen golfers and they play once a week at a local course- my husband and his best friend are currelty in ireland on a 2 day golfing trip aswell!!

    But my family members also go on 2 weeks holidays and the men play golf everyother day out there whilst the women and children laze around the pool and go shopping on their hubbies credit cards as ways of compensation for them going off and playing golf without them!!! THIS IS THE NORM!!!!

    So it pleases all the men they can golf and the women can enjoy abusing their credit cards in the meantime in order to keep the missus happy!!!!

    As for egypt again not a 3-4day golf mecca destination- In fact I dont know one person whos golfed in egypt or intends to do so at all!!!!

    Property purchase is a matter of peoples individual preferance and hobbies and interests!!
    a golfer will be more enticed to purchase within a golf resort rather than somewhere else, a beach fanatic will purchase by the beach, someone who enjoys the buzz of cities will buy in a city location etc...etc!!!

    So just because one persons preferance is different to another does not mean it wont work or will be a failure!!

    Just because someone has different needs and wants to yourself does not mean that they are wrong in their jugdements- IN FACT THE OPPOSITE!!!

    Take care-D :)
  19. michaelbush

    michaelbush New Member

    I was out for an early beer last night in Ponta Negra and met an English couple on holiday with Thomsons. Early 30's I would say and the guy is a golfer. His wife would be happy to sunbathe or shop while he plays golf. I asked the question- would you be interested in a round of golf here close to Natal? You are havng a larf!! was the response. "What, in this heat?" It was 7pm and had been dark for about an hour. Golf is meant to be a pleasure and in the climate here in the NE it certainly will not be a pleasure. Those of you making comparisons with other hot countries need to live here to understand why I hold my opinion. Too hot to play early and as the guy commented, when you are on holiday you would not want to go from a club to an early tee-off at say 5 am and by 6 am it is really hot and sticky. You cannot do a late tee-off as it gets dark early. That is the one thing I find hard to adjust to - the lack of long summer evenings with daylight. I still believe that golf courses are only used to sell a property and that not enough thought has been given to how to persuade people to play in the conditions that will prevail.
  20. JMBroad

    JMBroad New Member

    You'd have to do a really late tee-off time to not be finished by 6pm unless you are as bad at golf as me hehe. Well, I'm over there next week and most of my meetings start between 7:30 and 8:00 so I'll be out and about at around the same time ppl should start their rounds of golf. So I'll let you know then if I think the courses will get much use.
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