Estrela Do Atlantico Ponta Negra

[Danny44]

I'm sure you were not happy with the response you got wack? Ecocil are nothing more than a sub contracted company, I'm shocked your estate agent felt the need to clarify it? Everyone knows the "blockage" is Bi&Di who are responsible for allowing us to have the keys. You are correct that HSBC are funding, prior to that it was a Spanish bank who suffered the same fate as many euro banks and ended up pulling the funding, HSBC then stepped in. This would quantify some of the delays, but it's not a sole reason!

If I were you I would approach Bi&Di and ask them if it's possible to change to torre b, it's not like they don't have apts to spare. Also very interesting that there were so many faults in your vistoria. Our first visit we found 6 very minor cosmetic flaws, all of which were corrected to satisfaction. I can only assume that torre a has not been built with the same commitment as torre b. The problem still exists that Bi&Di refuse to allow habitation until the complex is fully complete, so regardless of "our" apartments readiness it's all down to Bi&Di's unwillingness to be reasonable, which in turn supports the 2014 theory!

There is a residents meeting on Monday night which is a follow on from the last meeting. This time it's independent and I would hope that it will be a lot more constructive and we will leave with a singular purpose and direction as a collective. Bi&Di have since contacted a few residents to say that they are starting to hand out keys as of 1 July, BUT there is no plan as to who gets first or who gets later as they have "no plan". As of yet none of the people who attended the condo meeting have been contacted. One can only conclude that it's more smoke screening from Bi&Di. If ever a country needed some form of building ombudsman it's brazil! The whole thing is beyond disgrace.

Will update again on Monday/Tuesday.

 

[debzor]

On the way out we met a guy who has bought 3 apartments in torre a, he has been trying to buy 2 more for the past month and he says they are just not interested in selling. He had a theory which I hope is not true. The price of a 2 bed apt per day for the world cup 2014 will be estimated at $R1000 per day for the month of the competition. He believes that Bi&Di are holding out to cash in on this and that they will continue to delay to fulfil their purpose! I hope hes wrong, but based on whats happening here I couldnt be sure!
Danny

Hi Danny

I am not sure about R$1000 per day for the month of the WC 2014, and a professional developer certainly would not be interested in this ploy, but there may be another reason for their lack of desire to sell. If Natal is anything like the Recife area, where I have experience, the building trade is not expanding, nor booming, but absolutely exploding.

Forget the recession everywhere else in the world, here there is a desperate shortage of builders and materials, and such is the demand that even the largest developers are being forced into paying top dollar rather then being able to negotiate their usual discounts. The delays from suppliers (due to the huge demand) are costing big time, because they have to pay the builders to be idle so as not to lose them to other developers.

Why would this cause them to delay sales? If you plan to build an off-plan block of apartments for (say) R$1500 per sq m, and sell each one for R$3000 per sq m, then you will make a decent profit, right? Not so, at the moment. If the delays cost you an additional (unplanned) R$1000 per sq m, then the profit is not now so attractive.

I know of one big developer who pre-sold 72 apartments at an agreed price in ONE day - all to Brazilians. Now the current (unexpected) cost to build means they will only make a small profit on these units, if anything at all, but not enough to finance their next project. The answer? Slow down sales to allow sales prices to 'catch up' with construction costs. They cannot justify a sudden jump in price, but they can over a period of time... and perhaps the boom will slow down a little to bring construction prices back down.

 

[Danny44]

We got an email today from Bi&Di asking us to transfer the remaining balance to them for the delivery of keys on 7/9 July. It remains to be seen if this will happen, but I will inform if successful!

 

[50 paul]

Hi everyone my name is Paul. I have invested in estrela do atlantico too but have had no contact from Mantnari for two years now. They are asking for the payment has anybody had their keys yet. I see that danny44 was getting his keys, has he had them?.I am thinking of going out there in August or September if work allows but this my be a pointless trip. Could someone please let me know how things are going out there. Many thanks

 

[Danny44]

Hi everyone my name is Paul. I have invested in estrela do atlantico too but have had no contact from Mantnari for two years now. They are asking for the payment has anybody had their keys yet. I see that danny44 was getting his keys, has he had them?.I am thinking of going out there in August or September if work allows but this my be a pointless trip. Could someone please let me know how things are going out there. Many thanks

Hey paul

Sorry I have not updated in a few days now. The position now is as follows.

We bought with Bi&Di direct here in natal, so we are dealing with them, i mean dealing in the most loose terminology. We are now in a standoff with the company. They want us to transfer the money and then give us the keys after 3 days of the money hitting their account! There is no way on this earth we are doing this. At present we have refused to do anything until we have a face to face meeting with them, so far they have refused, so its like a poker game at present. We have paid the rent for another month where we are living now so we are in no hurry to meet their demands. This is a company who cannot receive phone calls or meet with their investors on request, it not a situation which would generate confidence.

We offered to meet their rep at our bank (2km from the complex) and enact the transfer, we are sending HSBC to HSBC so it takes 10 mins to clear, we already checked this, but they have refused to meet us there, we offered to give a bankers draft cheque, again not acceptable to them! They are insisting that we need to wait 3 days after payment of any kind! Nowhere in the world would you be happy with such a transaction, but in Brazil it just sets off warning lights. All communication has been via email and their responses have been very brief and when we have asked for the paperwork ect it has been ignored. We are 100% not going to pay them until they concede with at least a phone call. There are now people who have keys, although as yet it seem nobody has moved in, but there is significant movement at the complex daily in a few of the apartments. I would hope that we will have our keys within the week as we now have a lawyer acting on our behalf! But its no surprise that he too is restricted to email contact. We are threatening court action due to the unreasonable nature of Bi&Di, others here are following a similar course. Hopefully this might bring the barriers down.

One final note, our lawyer suggested compensation to Bi&Di and their response was "we know nothing about that". Well they are going to know soon enough as the collective of residents here are not just upset, they are baying for blood!

Will update as sonn as there is movement.

 

[Danny44]

Finally got our keys last night. There are now 3 apartments with people actually moved in. Bi&Di eventually saw sense and met with us. One point so far that may cause issue to those of you not in Brasil, there is no power and you have to go to the company to have it activated, I dont know how that would work in the absence of being here. Also the laundry steam room and gym are not installed as yet, no time frame for these.

If anyone wants any info just ask, I will keep an eye on the tread.

 

[rangers]

Hey Danny, Thanks for the update.

Waiting still the latest news from my agent in Natal, but have an apartment in Block A, so that it does not look so good for that block, as in block B, I have understood.
But I'll cross my fingers that the block A is complete and in good condition at the end.

I am very glad that you update the thread with the news.

Regards Rangers.

 

[Danny44]

Hi rangers.

Some good news for you, there are now 3 apartments occupied in torre A. From talking to the foreman of the site today apartments in torre a are being finished as they sell. I would think that since you and others have paid 3/4 of the price that your apartments would be the ones ready. If you would like I can ask about the current situation of your apartment?

The guys on site have been fantastic with us to date with help and assistance with the apartment (making wiring changes and tiny little problems like stuck window latches, all were done immediately.). I'm happy to report some positives, also the security guys are fantastic so far, they even helped us move furniture and boxes in, first class!

We now have electric (activated in 1 day) and gas will be done on Monday ($R300 for the engineer to install the meter). All in all now we are in we are very happy with the place. View is stunning by day or night and it's about the most quiet I have had since I arrived here.

 

[anricus]

Hi Danny,

Thats great news that you've managed to get keys and have moved in. Just wondering if you had to pay the 4th instalment to get the keys? What is your position/thoughts on compensation? Are you at liberty to inform payments made for your apartment versus payments under contract? The reason I ask is because I want to know what BIDI's appetite is for negotiation? Was your contract in BRL or EURO?

 

[Danny44]

bi&di will only release the keys upon full payment, as per your contract. We investigated the possibility of negotiation with compensation but they are unwilling to move on what's agreed in the contract ( never mind that they are in breach of the contract). My thoughts are that you will have to pay what was agreed as there is no way you can negotiate with a company who don't meet clients face to face or by phone. I tried to negotiate thru email, but they simply ignored every email. My position was different as I wanted in here asap as the rent was draining me for the past 6 months in the other apartment I had.

I paid 3 instalments to Bi&Di, all in Reals. I hope you find negotiation easier than I did, Bi&Di are an impossible company to deal with being here, if I were overseas it would be 100 times harder! What I plan to do now is go through the courts to get compensation, but that's for the future as I'm happily working in the apartment at present.

 

[anricus]

Thank you Danny 44.

Wondering if anybody might know how the regulation stands in Brazil with regard to interest earned on payments made to date which might be sitting with the lawyers? I have asked my lawyer this in the past, but they have indicated that they don't know (or perhaps don't wish to divulge)...I ask this because I have been led to believe by my lawyers, that for 2 of 3 payments made so far, these have not been transferred to Bi&Di.

More questions: Are Bi&DI a significant organisation in Brazil? Would they have assets that a judge could demand be liquidated, in order to pay compensation claims, should these be awarded through the courts?

Personally, I believe it would be difficult for the developer to claim force majeur, when throughout the build, they never notified parties to the contracts that they were facing problems. Any communication to myself indicated that they were nearing completion and at no point was force majeur mentioned until now. Additionally, the developer it would appear has to accept responsibility for foreseeable risks (which would not be considered force majeur),such as shortage of materials or labour, whereas an unforseeable risk might be one related to severe weather conditions.

I also came accross another legal concept (which I cannot recall the name of). This provides that where two parties to a contract dispute the amount which is payable in order to settle the contract, then a judge can be appointed to review and determine the payable amount. This allows quick settlement and delivery. Does anyone know what the term is? Wondered if any one had come accross this or seen this exercised in a scenario where compensation is due to one party under a contract as a result of delay.

 

[debzor]

Thank you Danny 44.

Wondering if anybody might know how the regulation stands in Brazil with regard to interest earned on payments made to date which might be sitting with the lawyers? I have asked my lawyer this in the past, but they have indicated that they don't know (or perhaps don't wish to divulge)...I ask this because I have been led to believe by my lawyers, that for 2 of 3 payments made so far, these have not been transferred to Bi&Di.

More questions: Are Bi&DI a significant organisation in Brazil? Would they have assets that a judge could demand be liquidated, in order to pay compensation claims, should these be awarded through the courts?

Personally, I believe it would be difficult for the developer to claim force majeur, when throughout the build, they never notified parties to the contracts that they were facing problems. Any communication to myself indicated that they were nearing completion and at no point was force majeur mentioned until now. Additionally, the developer it would appear has to accept responsibility for foreseeable risks (which would not be considered force majeur),such as shortage of materials or labour, whereas an unforseeable risk might be one related to severe weather conditions.

I also came accross another legal concept (which I cannot recall the name of). This provides that where two parties to a contract dispute the amount which is payable in order to settle the contract, then a judge can be appointed to review and determine the payable amount. This allows quick settlement and delivery. Does anyone know what the term is? Wondered if any one had come accross this or seen this exercised in a scenario where compensation is due to one party under a contract as a result of delay.

Hi Anricus

There is a form of arbitration here, where both parties (with their attorneys if desired) are invited to discuss their complaints in front of a court representative, long before the court case is due to be heard. The idea is to try and reach an agreed settlement to save court time, and avoid the long delays it takes to get to court. This does not mean you will get all that you want, though...

Remember also that the UK and the US use common law, but in Brazil it is criminal law, so it is not always enough just to prove someone else was to blame. In the first instance refer to your contract, and exactly what it says about this situation. This is what a judge would do.

 

[anricus]

The legal concept I couldn't think of earlier is the "pagamento em consignação"... wondering if anyone has seen this exercised and has any thoughts on how this might be applied in existing contracts with Bi&DI where purchasers are wishing to exercise final payment net of compensation. I realise the argument might be raised that final payment is due under the contract, and compensation can only be sought after settlement. However, the contract states the final amount payment (presumably when delivery of the apartment is on time) and also states applicable compensation in the event of delay (on either the part of the developer or the purchaser),therefore, I would argue that under the contract, it is fair to argue that net settlement is applicable... Arguments and thoughts welcome from layperson and legal professionals

 

[kangaboy]

Manzanares

Hi Danny,

Thats great news that you've managed to get keys and have moved in. Just wondering if you had to pay the 4th instalment to get the keys? What is your position/thoughts on compensation? Are you at liberty to inform payments made for your apartment versus payments under contract? The reason I ask is because I want to know what BIDI's appetite is for negotiation? Was your contract in BRL or EURO?

Hi All, I purchased an apartment years ago as well, but since paying the 3rd instalment in 2009 I havent heard anything. Does anybody have a contact name and address/tel number for Manzanares International?

Many Thanks for anybody who can help. Regards, Brian.

 

[rangers]

Hi Brian,

Here is the web and e-mail address.

Mail add:[email protected]

Web: www.manzanaresinternational.com

Regards Rangers

 

[Wack666]

Hi Brian, I am dealing with a lawyer at Manzanares his name is Adolfo Silva Magdaleno [[email protected]] he has been very helpful to me during my purchase.
I have not received my keys yet as Ana Claudia (estate agent) has been to the apartment and completed a 'snagging' list and is now waitng for the snagging to be rectified. Ana believes this should be done this week.
I have not paid my final instalment as Manzanares are currently negotiating with Bi&Di lawyers over compensation/discount for the delay of completion.
I have to agree with Anricus:
"Personally, I believe it would be difficult for the developer to claim force majeur, when throughout the build, they never notified parties to the contracts that they were facing problems. Any communication to myself indicated that they were nearing completion and at no point was force majeur mentioned until now. Additionally, the developer it would appear has to accept responsibility for foreseeable risks (which would not be considered force majeur),such as shortage of materials or labour, whereas an unforseeable risk might be one related to severe weather conditions."

I will let you know when I get more info back from Manzanares.

Glad to hear you are happy with your apartment Danny44

Regards

 

[Wack666]

Hi all, I have received information from Marta Davila (Bi&Di) that the Condominium fee will be around 300BRL a month, has anyone else heard anything?
Ranger44 have you had any notification of the Condo fee and have Bi&Di setup a central account for the payments to be made? Marta has mentioned there are a number of people already living in the apartments
Regards

 

[rangers]

Hi Wack666,

Got an e-mail, which Ana forwarded from Marta:
I am forwarding the message Mrs. Marta from Bi&Di sent me regarding your apartment. She told me there are a few people already living in the building and the condo fee will be around 300.00 BRL.

Have not had any account numbers or when I have to pay. Have not heard from Ana about the apartment for a long time. But keeping my fingers crossed that they are working on it.

Regards

 

[Danny44]

The condominium has yet to be set. As Marta suggested it is supposed to be around $R300, but thats not certain. Right now we are paying zero due to no meeting being arranged as yet to set an agenda. At present we are the only people fully moved in and living in torre B, there is another apartment in Torre A occupied also. From what I know most of the others here are waiting for finance before they get their keys, so it could be some time before any condo fees are due. I would wait until you hear from Bi&Di in relation to the fee, it will not stop you taking possession of the keys. Even if the rate was set today I would be refusing to pay it due to the water system not being fully functional, it takes 10 mins for any hot water to appear, and whilst they know about it, they are not doing much to rectify it!

As always if I can help with any questions here, feel free to ask as Im suffering the teething issues that you may face on your arrival.

Cheers

 

[Danny44]

some pics