Drinking & driving in Brazil

Status
Not open for further replies.
R

RalphJ

New Member
I am suprised you haven't slit your wrists yet Ralph ....

Why slit your wrists Dave? Spend enough time here in Brazil and you'll either get shot, like 3 of my friends have in the past several years, one brit and two americans, or get killed in an auto accident.


Suicide is totally unnecessary.
 
D

davehoskings

New Member
Why slit your wrists Dave? Spend enough time here in Brazil and you'll either get shot, like 3 of my friends have in the past several years, one brit and two americans, or get killed in an auto accident.


Suicide is totally unnecessary.
Aracaju, which I assume is where you live, must be pretty dangerous then?
 
R

RalphJ

New Member
Aracaju, which I assume is where you live, must be pretty dangerous then?

For Brazil.....people say it's "safe". But then again when you're in a country where they compare the murder rate to Baghdad "safe" may not be what you're accustomed to.:)
 
D

Dotty

Banned
You really are coming from another world Dave.Stay in Brasil for 1 or 2 yrs and see for yourself,because clearly you have not got an ounce of experience in Brasil.
Go and stay in Sao Paulo,Natal,Recife ,Forteleza,Rio then discuss violence in Brasil.
The reference to Iraq is a bit old and tired now, that is about the 2005 rates, it is now 2008 and things have changed since then.

Try this: Brazil | Not as violent as you thought | Economist.com
 
D

davehoskings

New Member
You really are coming from another world Dave.Stay in Brasil for 1 or 2 yrs and see for yourself,because clearly you have not got an ounce of experience in Brasil.
Go and stay in Sao Paulo,Natal,Recife ,Forteleza,Rio then discuss violence in Brasil.
Poor dear Dotty, now you are claiming that the economist is wrong.

You are having a laugh if you are even trying to compare Natal with Recife, SP or Rio in terms of crime, you really need to open your eyes and travel a bit (and stop exaggerating). :rolleyes:
 
D

Dotty

Banned
Ask any Brasilian in their country about their country and the response will be the same as mine,so for those that have not an ounce of experience living here really should come and live Brasil.You are clearly new to Brasil Dave,but that's not a bad thing as you will soon wisen up!:)
Poor dear Dotty, now you are claiming that the economist is wrong.

You are having a laugh if you are even trying to compare Natal with Recife, SP or Rio in terms of crime, you really need to open your eyes and travel a bit (and stop exaggerating). :rolleyes:
 
D

davehoskings

New Member
Ask any Brasilian in their country about their country and the response will be the same as mine,so for those that have not an ounce of experience living here really should come and live Brasil.You are clearly new to Brasil Dave,but that's not a bad thing as you will soon wisen up!:)
poor dooty, how about we meet up this week. you are in natal no, i should be heading through there in a couple of days....
 
M

Mineiro

Member
poor dooty, how about we meet up this week. you are in natal no, i should be heading through there in a couple of days....
I knew it Dave, you do have a crush on Dotty. Feeling lonely in Brazil now you've been here a couple of months? :D
 
M

Mineiro

Member
For Brazil.....people say it's "safe". But then again when you're in a country where they compare the murder rate to Baghdad "safe" may not be what you're accustomed to.:)
Ralph, it's great when people who have hardly lived here in Brazil tell you that you're wrong and that through their almost minimal experience they already know more than you.
It really is quite astounding how these people (Dave, Rob, ETC) seem to think they know everything about Brazil. I've been here 15 years and I still don't have a full knowledge of Brazil, after all it's a vast country with enormous cultural diferences.
 
R

RalphJ

New Member
The reference to Iraq is a bit old and tired now, that is about the 2005 rates, it is now 2008 and things have changed since then.

Try this: Brazil | Not as violent as you thought | Economist.com

That article talks about Sao Paulo Dave, not the whole of Brazil. The last statistics reported shows Brazil to have a total of 55,000 people that die from violence a year, which comes out to approximately 25 people per 100K in the entire country. To put that in perspective the U.S. has a murder rate of 4 per 100K and England 1 per 100K. It puts Brazil at 5th most dangerous country in the world proportionally speaking, right behind Russia.

As violence has been reduced in recent years in Sao Paulo many other cities, and specifically rural areas, the numbers have inreased. Here is a quote in response to the economist article you posted...


That said, Boz's caution that we not view these gains as the beginning of a "Paz Brasiliana" is absolutely right. Rio is still suffering from the same, stale police tactics of shooting first and calling everybody "traficantes" later. Additionally, the growing presence of paramilitary militia groups that are sometimes entering into the drug trade in Rio is a bad omen. Finally, while São Paulo's murder rates have dropped significantly, rural violence (generally between rich landowners and indigenous groups or the landless and their champions) has shown no signs of slowing down.
Alterdestiny: Brazil's Declining Crime Rates - Signs of Hope?


If you're going to attempt and paint Brazil as some peaceful, tranquil, "safe" paradise Dave, you've got a long, uphill battle on your hands my friend.
 
debzor

debzor

New Member
That article talks about Sao Paulo Dave, not the whole of Brazil. The last statistics reported shows Brazil to have a total of 55,000 people that die from violence a year, which comes out to approximately 25 people per 100K in the entire country. To put that in perspective the U.S. has a murder rate of 4 per 100K and England 1 per 100K. It puts Brazil at 5th most dangerous country in the world proportionally speaking, right behind Russia.

As violence has been reduced in recent years in Sao Paulo many other cities, and specifically rural areas, the numbers have inreased. Here is a quote in response to the economist article you posted...




Alterdestiny: Brazil's Declining Crime Rates - Signs of Hope?


If you're going to attempt and paint Brazil as some peaceful, tranquil, "safe" paradise Dave, you've got a long, uphill battle on your hands my friend.


This one makes interesting reading:

Crime in Brazil Is Not As Bad As the Statistics Indicate
 
R

RalphJ

New Member


The problem with those numbers Debzor is that it is widely known and admitted that the vast majority of crimes in Brazil like rape and robbery go unreported due to a lack of confidence in the police.

For Marcelo Durante, the Justice Ministry's report coordinator, the biggest reduction in criminality occurred in states where more people participated in the government program to buy back firearms.

Durante also revealed that many violent crimes are underreported in Brazil. He mentioned for example that it's believed that 75% of robberies and 85% of rapes are never reported to the police.

Many Brazilian seem to think that reporting those crimes would be just a waste of time since the authorities wouldn't do anything anyway.

It is also widely believed by Brazilian gov't. authorities that as many as several thousand murders go unreported every year in secluded areas such as the Amazon.


I also wouldn't give too much creedence to that link you posted Deb, as the guy who wrote the article has a financial interest in selling Brazil. With statments such as this...

Outside of the inner cities, Brazil is pretty much the safest place on earth, with an outlandishly low crime rate. By comparison the USA is far more dangerous than Brazil.
I started to wonder. Then I saw this..

The author, Arthur Wyss is a resident of Beijing, China. He specializes in immigration assistance for those who wish to live in Brazil. He also operates Brazil Land Sales, which primarily sells land in the State of Tocantins, Brazil.
Also, when we have access to statistics from legitimate organizations such as the following, that clearly shows the most dangerous places in Brazil are NOT the big cities, but smaller cities and towns.

Murder in Brazil Is Not Just a Big-City Problem Anymore
Written by Elma Lia Nascimento
Wednesday, 28 February 2007
It's common knowledge that while Brazil's largest cities, like São Paulo, Rio and Salvador, are plagued by violence the rest of the country still offers plenty of places, which are islands of quiet and safety. This common knowledge, however, has just been debunked.

A study by the Organization of Ibero-American States shows that violent crimes in Brazil are moving from the capitals to the country's interior. Murders, the report reveals, are now spread throughout 556 or 10% of the 5560 Brazilian municipalities.

Rio, São Paulo and all other densely populated cities don't make into the 10 worst cities for violent death. They don't appear even among the 100 worst cities. Rio de Janeiro shows up at 107th place with 57.2 murders per 100,000 and São Paulo only makes it at 182nd place with 48.2 homicides per 100,000.

While falling in the big cities the murder rate has been steadily increasing in the hinterland, however.

The 10 most violent municipalities in Brazil don't even include a capital city. Among them only two in fact are in metropolitan areas: Serra, in the state of Espírito Santo and Ilha de Itamaracá, in Pernambuco.

The research, which was a joint effort with Brazil's Health Ministry, shows that Brazilian champion of murder is not a big town, but Colniza, a small 13,000-residents city in the state of Mato Grosso, which has had over 20 murders a year for the last three years, putting it at the top with a rate of 165 deaths per 100,000 residents.

All numbers are from 2004, the last year in which the statistical data have been consolidated.

The 556 cities analyzed in the study concentrate 71.8% of all the murders in Brazil. While Colniza appears as number 1, the last town in the list, Nova América, in the state of Goiás, appears with 29.8 homicides per 100,000, which still puts it inside an area that the Inter-American Development Bank (IADB) classifies as presenting "total rupture of the public safety mechanisms." These are cities where the population neither trusts the police nor believes they can solve their problems.

A recent Violence Map drawn by the Brazilian government has shown that while the Brazilian population increased 16.5% in the decade going from 1994 to 2004, the number of murders during the same period grew 48.4%, from 32.603 deaths a year to 48,374.

Some of Brazil's most violent places are new towns created with the deforestation of the Amazon and they include besides Colniza, Juruena, São José do Xingu and Aripuanã, all Mato in Grosso and Tailândia, in the state of Pará, where lawlessness seems to be the rule. They are in fact nobody's land.

Naturally, the number of murders is not exactly small in the capitals. Only seven from Brazil's 26 capitals do not show up among the 556 meanies and the metropolitan areas of the capitals of Rio de Janeiro, Pernambuco and Espírito are some of the most lethal areas in the country. Since 1998, Pernambuco and Espírito Santo have appeared in the Violence Map among the most dangerous states to your life.

"These are cities where there are huge fights for the land, involving Indians, deforestation and the illegal appropriation of areas. These are very remote regions, of difficult access, where the government and laws are absent," says the report's author, sociologist Julio Jacobo Waiselfisz, for whom Brazil's violence has reached unbearable highs.

Commenting the study, Brazil's Health Minister, Agenor Alves, said that "the data are not encouraging at all." "This is an alarming worrisome situation," he stated, adding that the new numbers will be useful in helping the government to adopt the right policies to lessen the problem of violence in Brazil.

With 48.374 homicides in 2004, Brazil is considered the world's 4th worst country in number of murders just behind Colombia, Russia and Venezuela. And this number could be worse if the real numbers were in. Waiselfisz believes that there are 15% more homicides in Brazil than the statistics show.

Thousands of deaths are never reported to the authorities. In this case, as he believes, the victims are buried in clandestine cemeteries or just abandoned in the jungles and rivers where they are never found or accounted for.

Top 30 municipalities where murder is a problem in Brazil (average rate for 2002/2004):

City, State, Murder Rate per 100,000, Ranking

Colniza MT 165.3 1st
Juruena MT 137.8 2nd
Coronel Sapucaia MS 116.4 3rd
Serra ES 111.3 4th
São José do Xingu MT 109.6 5th
Vila Boa GO 107.0 6th
Tailândia PA 104.9 7th
Aripuanã MT 98.2 8th
Ilha de Itamaracá PE 95.1 9th
Macaé RJ 94.5 10th
Foz do Iguaçu PR 94.3 11th
Itaguaí RJ 92.7 12th
Recife PE 91.2 13th
Tunas do Paraná PR 86.8 14th
Itaboraí RJ 83.7 15th
Cariacica ES 83.3 16th
Cabo de Santo Agostinho PE 82.2 17th
Santa Cruz do Xingu MT 81.7 18th
Duque de Caxias RJ 80.9 19th
Ribeirão PE 79.4 20th
Rio Bonito do Iguaçu PR 79.3 21st
Vitória ES 78.6 22nd
Nova Iguaçu RJ 78.5 23rd
Vicente Dutra RS 78.1 24th
Cotriguaçu MT 77.4 25th
Buritis RO 77.3 26th
Jaboatão dos Guararapes PE 76.9 27th
São Sebastião SP 76.9 28th
Agrestina PE 75.8 29th
Diadema SP 74.6 30th

Rio de Janeiro RJ 57.2 107th
São Paulo SP 48.2 182nd
From April of 2007 to April of 2008 I had two friends, one Brit and one American, who were both shot, and they're certainly not involved with drugs. Then several years ago my best friend here in Brazil, which was american, was shot and killed in his own home. My British friend who was shot last year was also shot in his own home. Within the last two months my ex-wife was robbed at gunpoint outside her home. And so far this year in Aracaju, which as I've stated people say is "safe"....for Brazil, we've had 900 buses robbed. That's a little more than 4 every single day.

755 ônibus assaltados este ano em Aju
Veículo fazia a linha Fernando Collor/DIA
24/07/2008 - 11:38

O ônibus que faz a linha Fernando Collor/DIA registrou no fim da noite de ontem, 23, o assalto de número 755 a transportes coletivos urbanos somente neste ano de 2008.
That was posted on infonet.com in July of this year. There has been an update over the past couple weeks where the number has reached 900.
 
Last edited:
debzor

debzor

New Member
To be fair the figures quoted are for 2004 (apparently the latest available?),and 4 years is a long time in modern Brazil. Even the other data showed a downturn after this year.

I must, of course, defend Ilha de Itamaraca!

When the popluation of the 3 prisons make up a very significant proportion of the total population (about 30%),then the crime (that exists in all prisons around the world) will have a proportionally greater impact on the statistics than in a typically sized city, including murder. But because the prisons are located in the municipality of Itamaraca their figures are also included.

I know there was one murder on the island last year (ie not in the prisons) , giving a true figure of 5.88 per 100,000 of population - where would that fit in your chart?

When the prisons close in 2010, then we will see a truer reflection...!
 
M

Mineiro

Member
The problem with those numbers Debzor is that it is widely known and admitted that the vast majority of crimes in Brazil like rape and robbery go unreported due to a lack of confidence in the police.




It is also widely believed by Brazilian gov't. authorities that as many as several thousand murders go unreported every year in secluded areas such as the Amazon.


I also wouldn't give too much creedence to that link you posted Deb, as the guy who wrote the article has a financial interest in selling Brazil. With statments such as this...



I started to wonder. Then I saw this..



Also, when we have access to statistics from legitimate organizations such as the following, that clearly shows the most dangerous places in Brazil are NOT the big cities, but smaller cities and towns.



From April of 2007 to April of 2008 I had two friends, one Brit and one American, who were both shot, and they're certainly not involved with drugs. Then several years ago my best friend here in Brazil, which was american, was shot and killed in his own home. My British friend who was shot last year was also shot in his own home. Within the last two months my ex-wife was robbed at gunpoint outside her home. And so far this year in Aracaju, which as I've stated people say is "safe"....for Brazil, we've had 900 buses robbed. That's a little more than 4 every single day.



That was posted on infonet.com in July of this year. There has been an update over the past couple weeks where the number has reached 900.
Great post Ralph. I wonder how much Marta Suplicy paid Arthur Wyss for writing that article. It's very similar to a lot of the posts on this forum.
 
M

Mineiro

Member
To be fair the figures quoted are for 2004 (apparently the latest available?),and 4 years is a long time in modern Brazil. Even the other data showed a downturn after this year.

I must, of course, defend Ilha de Itamaraca!

When the popluation of the 3 prisons make up a very significant proportion of the total population (about 30%),then the crime (that exists in all prisons around the world) will have a proportionally greater impact on the statistics than in a typically sized city, including murder. But because the prisons are located in the municipality of Itamaraca their figures are also included.

I know there was one murder on the island last year (ie not in the prisons) , giving a true figure of 5.88 per 100,000 of population - where would that fit in your chart?

When the prisons close in 2010, then we will see a truer reflection...!
Loved the statistics on Itamaraca. Pernambuco has 6 in the top 30.
 
R

RalphJ

New Member
To be fair the figures quoted are for 2004 (apparently the latest available?),and 4 years is a long time in modern Brazil. Even the other data showed a downturn after this year.

I must, of course, defend Ilha de Itamaraca!

When the popluation of the 3 prisons make up a very significant proportion of the total population (about 30%),then the crime (that exists in all prisons around the world) will have a proportionally greater impact on the statistics than in a typically sized city, including murder. But because the prisons are located in the municipality of Itamaraca their figures are also included.

I know there was one murder on the island last year (ie not in the prisons) , giving a true figure of 5.88 per 100,000 of population - where would that fit in your chart?

When the prisons close in 2010, then we will see a truer reflection...!

First, it's not "my" chart, it's the Organization of Ibero-American States along with Brazil's own Health Ministry. Debzor, I'm not saying that there aren't places that would be considered "safe" nearly anywhere in the world. But the facts show, from the far north to the far south, that Brazil is a very dangerous place to be. And anyone who tries to state otherwise must've grown up in the middle of a warzone.

As I stated above, the last numbers that we have access to, which was in 2006, showed an overall murder rate of 25 per 100K, and the previous study I posted shows that this is NOT only an "inner city" problem, as our friend Arthur Wyss claims, but actually to the contrary. Also, the accuracy of these numbers is definitely in question. They are best case scenarios, these are the cases that are "known", that have been reported. And unfortunately not reporting crimes in Brazil is a huge problem because of the problems with police here, they can be more dangerous than the criminals and in many cases work in conjunction with them.

My good american friend who got shot this past April while taking photographs with his 17 year old stepson on a brand new expansion bridge here at mid day has been travelling to Brazil since the early '70's and for quite a few years has been spending 6 months a year here. He was with the U.S. corp. or engineers back then and helped build a lot of the infrastructure here. He is friends with numerous high level police and federal police here in this state, he plays tennis with them weekly. Immediately after he was shot a police car passed by Bob and his stepson and they screamed to the police that he had just been shot and the guy was on a bike and rode to the other side of the bridge. Witnesses saw the police catch the guy, took what he stole, and let him go. Bob's high-level police friends have told him that the police that caught the man were involved with the thief.

This is not uncommon throughout this entire country.

When the prisons close in 2010, then we will see a truer reflection...!

Yes, you will. And you better hope they move them to other prisons and just don't let them out on the island or you'll probably have to move.
 
Last edited:
debzor

debzor

New Member
Yes, you will. And you better hope they move them to other prisons and just don't let them out on the island or you'll probably have to move.

Fortunately, as we speak, they are building a new facility to house all the prisoners many miles away. Otherwise I probably would have moved...!
 
debzor

debzor

New Member
Loved the statistics on Itamaraca. Pernambuco has 6 in the top 30.
I have already mentioned the distortion with Itamaraca, but apart from Recife, the other 4 are all in the interior - which kind of confirms what was being said before about the crime moving away from the big cities.

PE also just finished training nearly 1500 new police officers, but I agree that we are probably just looking at the tip of the iceberg in relation to all crime, not just murders and reported crimes.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top