Caponga Beach - Fortaleza

Discussion in 'Brazil Property' started by DGM42, Apr 23, 2009.

  1. StuartA

    StuartA New Member

    Hi folks, just stumbled across this thread.
    We are the developers at Caponga Beach, and I can assure you that the infrastructure and access roads are in place. We also have 2 sets of legal due diligence verifying this and the clear unemcumbered title etc. We've sold about 120 plots to date and all purchasers who have completed have received full freehold title deeds. Its a great project and the only project in Fortaleza with all licenses already in place, as well as infrastructure. Many of our clients will be starting to build in the next 12 months. Please contact me if you would like any further information.
     
  2. JMBroad

    JMBroad New Member

    Hi Stuart and welcome to the forums.

    Surely you didn't mean to say "the only project in Fortaleza with all licenses already in place, as well as infrastructure"? Perhaps you meant the only project of it's kind in Caponga with all licenses already in place as well as infrastructure?
     
  3. dwc

    dwc New Member

    caponga beach --i know--be careful

    Hello,I know the area well..I personally would not buy here--many problems--first,you probably will not see any appreciation-why-this plot of land is very far from the beach and that is why the price is what it is--not low like you say--the price is high --you need to go there personally and you need to scout the area preferably for a few months and not days or weeks like I did.I purchased in a section of taiba called TaibaSand .Taiba is close by and a nice area with great beaches.i have told many on this forum to go there personally..Do not trust the photos or pics because unfortunately all is not honest.You can buy much closer to the beach for the same money but you need to spend more and either buy frontline or second line beach property.The frontline is what has appreciated 15 to 30 percent per YEAR since 2005. The homes and condos have NOT...Buy a nice piece of Frontline Beach now and when you have the money years from now,build,In the coming years oyhers will be building inland just like this resort so the supply of homes will be high and that keeps prices of condos low...no appreciation...They are not making any more FRONTLINE BEACHFRONT so the decision is easy.....Also,as far as i can see these people are just interested in selling these plots...many people will not build so even if you are one of the first to build you will be in view of everyone in a wide open field and that BREEDS MAJOR SECURITY PROBLEMS.....The enemployed will come and rip your house apart stealing EVERYTHING---I know the real story !!! Hope I continue to help those who need my advice........This is not directed to you.....others have written REPLIES to what I have said and are very IGNORANT....they want to make people think they know what is going on but they are either misinformed or just plain STUPID......I have been an investor for alot of years and when I tell you something it is based on real personal experience not a wild guess..I had someone tell me today that buying frontline beachfront in Taiba would not result in doubling my money...I cannot argue with someone like this because they are just plain STUPID..I have invested heavily in taiba and have bought and sold beachfront and more than doubled my money and yes in a year and a hallf time...so donot listen to all you hear....No one knows what the future brings but history portends to tell you BEACHFRONT will continue to appreciate at a more rapid rate then other lands as a whole...end of story...dwc
     
  4. StuartA

    StuartA New Member

    Thanks for your sales pitch DWC, and I’m sure Taiba tourist office will be pleased with your support. It’s pretty clear that you’re either a developer or agent for Taiba, but that’s no excuse for criticizing everything else. I have followed your comments on these threads the last few days and every one is exactly the same … you slag off everything, everyone, and every project in Brazil that anyone else is considering, and then ramble on about yourself and Taiba. Not everything in the world is rubbish unless it begins with ‘T’ and ends with ‘A’ and is located on the beach, and not everybody is stupid and ignorant apart from you. Your motives are very clear for everyone to see, and your ramblings are very unconvincing and ill-informed.
    There are many new and exciting projects being developed around the Caponga area including our Village Resort of detached villas, and Aguas Belas with golf course, houses, hotels and spa - all about the same distance from the Fortaleza centre as Taiba. Finally, you’ll find that not all Brazilians or Capongans are unemployed thieves who come and rip up your house – very condescending!
    One Question – If you have done so well in your investment in Taiba, then why are you so angry with life? Enjoy a long stroll along Taiba beach and take a few deep breaths.
    Good luck with your sales.
     
  5. dwc

    dwc New Member

    Please read again

    Hi,it appears you are the angry one--you need to read everything I said and not what you personally read into it. I write to HELP uninformed individuals and if you fall into that camp as it appears..try to open your mind........and LEARN
     
  6. Sim_business

    Sim_business New Member

    What DWC is saying does make sense re frontline property supply is shrinking and you know the good old dynamics of supply and demand.

    DWC can you send me some information regarding agents that are selling plots in Taiba?

    I did look at the area last year but was hard to find people selling.

    There are some on cumbuco.nl but not front line.....

    Also what is the average price for frontline in Taiba /m2 ?

    Thanks for your informative posts and help.
     
  7. JMBroad

    JMBroad New Member

    Well, beach front land isn't exactly getting short in Brazil - there are around 7.500 kms of it and the vast majority is unpopulated or only has small villages...

    However finding nice plots of land in areas where you'll still want to live in 5, 10 or 20 years is the challenge as some will remain abandoned little fishing villages for the foreseeable future whereas others will turn into more or less popular tourism destinations - personally I prefer the "some tourism but not crowded" version.

    But I agree with DWC in the sense that these locations sound like places where you may be considering buying a holiday home - so in that case you should visit and see for yourself. Purely financial investments can be done from the comfort of your sofa but if you are considering spending any amount of time in the destination using the final product then you need to make sure it's the right thing for you.
     
  8. dwc

    dwc New Member

    cumbuco versus taiba BEACHFRONT

    Hello Sim,I would be glad to help you.The price now in Taiba for frontline beachfront is 100 to 150 reais per sq. meter for plots 1000 m2 to 25,000 m2...these area figures are approx. and all land is not the same,some lands have elevation which makes them more valuable then flat if it is a large piece--so the numbers are a little flexible..The frontline beach in Cumbuco is 500 to 600 per m2 but recently someone bought for 410 m2 and the seller only sold because the currency was favorable to him. I like Taiba very much and I have many friends who own NEW resorts there BUT I bought for a couple reasons,the disparity in price is 4x to 5x......Cumbuco is expensive and only a 25 to 30 minute drive from cumbuco by roads....if you travel in a 4x4 along the beach ,it's 15 mins.max. so......the question is....either Taiba property is priced way to low or Cumbuco is too high......the price disparity is very large being the towns are so close to each other.....much less down-side risk in taiba and greter potential for appreciation in Taiba I also appreciate the beaches and scenery in Taiba..much nicer than cumbuco...also I have had friends robbed in Cumbuco.......no problem in Taiba. You have to check both places out but the biggest bang for the buck is in...Taiba..Also,Taiba is attractive because the wealthy Brazilians from Fortaleza have vacation homes there and they are kept up.......go check these out personally before you buy,,,remember mine is just another opinion.............an EDUCATED opinion.....look for a bargain...hope i helped you...dwc
     
  9. JMBroad

    JMBroad New Member

    DWC - just a small comment here:

    In Rio Grande do Norte Cajueiro is only 5 minutes away from Sao Miguel do Gostoso
    Also in Rio Grande do Norte Tibau do Sul is only 5 minutes away from Pipa
    In Rio de Janeiro Morro do Pavao is only one step away from Ipanema. To get from Leblon in Rio to Barra da Tijuca in Rio you need to drive through 5 minutes of favelas yet these are amongst the best neighbourhoods of Rio.

    In the above, land prices in the better areas (Sao Miguel, Pipa, Ipanema, Leblon, Barra da Tijuca) are many times superior to the other neighbourhoods.

    My point being (and this is the same in every country I've ever worked in, invested in or researched) geographical proximity is not relative to price. Good neighbourhoods are often separated from each other by poorer, less exclusive neighbourhoods. Each neighbourhood has to be evaluated not only with regards to the quality of the neighbourhood itself (facilities, types of properties, infrastructure or redeeming features - being isolated or the fact that there is no mobile phone connection is a redeeming feature for me personally but very well might be a negative point for someone else. Each of us have our own personal frames of reference, especially with regards to holiday homes abroad).

    Even if you are saying that Taiba and Cumbuco are identical in every other aspect (with which I wouldn't agree), the 15 minutes drive doesn't make a difference. What does make a difference is that Cumbuco is (relatively and by Brazilian terms) a lot closer to Fortaleza city centre than Taiba is (yes 30 minutes is considered a lot by northeastern Brazilian standards). 30 minutes can make a town too far for Brazilians to visit. Remember that if you fall over and break a leg you'll need to get an ambulance out to pick you up. 30 minutes by road for you can mean at least an extra hour or so for the ambulance (30 minutes out and 30 minutes back).

    Not passing judgment on which is nicer nor am I offering my opinion on either - just stating some facts about land and property value in Brazil generally.
     
  10. Sim_business

    Sim_business New Member

    Thanks for your reply both of you have given me food for thought.

    DWC do you have any agent contact details you can pass on?

    Thanks.
     
  11. Simon Eaton

    Simon Eaton New Member

    Caponga Beach

    I saw this project about 2 years ago, I recognise the infrastructure. Interesting to note here that the site has no access and is a fair distance from the beach. Also, at 7 000 GBP i am fascinated to know the quality of infrastructure. I bought some land near Fortaleza, in Jericaocoa and also outside Niteroi in Rio de Janeiro - my favourite. The infrastructure cost was over 5000 per unit, that excludes things like facilities on site. Sewerage and phone lines should be in... it seems a bit ridiculous to be honest with you. Buy cheap, buy twice. Love to see this site with all these houses on, no way in a million it could handle the load, data, electrical, and no sewerage connection....

    The infras look terrible, i am sure you would all agree, and its location is drastic. Caponga was ok when I visited, but as JM said it doesnt stand out when you look at 7500 km of beach.

    On another note JM, talking about distance etc... Jericacoa is a lot further yet boasts prices and returns better than most areas within 1 hour of Fortaleza, depends on your market.

    Rio de Janeiro is even further from Fortaleza :p, yet I have got a real deal there.

    Final thought - I just compared the price of this land in Caponga, it seems cheap, but you get 250 m2, that is tiny, other companies are twice the price and give you twice as much land.

    Check the details, its not just land in brazil. a ferrari costs more than a fiat, but they both are cars.
     
  12. Blighty

    Blighty New Member

    Does anybody know of the type of amenities are in this development yet,is security provided yet?is there a date on the completion of all the amenities?
    Please if a local person or buyer knows can they let me know as i am interested in this project but agents are "hazy" on the answer so would like to know from geniune people .
    many thanks!
     
  13. StuartA

    StuartA New Member

    Hello Blighty

    Just to let you know firstly that I am representing the developers there, so this is not exactly an impartial response. Apologies if some agents have not been able to give you a clear answer to your questions. The current position with the Caponga Beach development is that the infrastructure is completed, and we have built 1 small house on block 1 so as to get the electricity connected for the full site (although we will probably replace this or use as an office ahead of client construction). Someone had mentioned on this thread that the access road wasn't there, however I can confirm that a full tarmac road is completed and gives excellent access to both the village and the main road out to Cascaval.

    We have staff based in the house at the moment to provide basic security and maintenance. Approximately 150 of the plots are sold already, and development will hopefully start by the end of this year. We have the plans for a range of villas and apartment developments, and are currently putting together a construction schedule. At the moment we are completing the executive plans, and (just this week) received the initial full costings for the villa types, so can now progress to a first phase of construction schedules within a few months. This will be largely dictated by our early investors, however we have a good number of interested clients, and I would be confident that we’ll be building client houses by the end of the year.

    At my last visit there a few weeks ago, we met again with the architects and constructors, so this is progressing well. We are also setting up a formal management and maintenance company for the site which will include responsibility for security. This will be in place before the first client houses are constructed.

    I have lots of (badly taken) pictures of the site, of the entrance, and of the house that we built etc., and full plans of the villa types and revised costs etc. If you let me have your email, I’ll send these to you.

    I hope this update has been useful, but please do not hesitate to contact me should you require anything further.

    KR
    Stuart
     
  14. dwc

    dwc New Member

    hello,i agree with frames of references and cumbuco and taiba in all other respects are the same---the problem with your last statement in reference to travel time,,,,,,Cumbuco does not cater to Brazillians..most of the new inhabitants are tourists that are either visiting or now living there...if you walk the beaches during the weekend when it is busy you will find many more Europeans there then Brazillians...This goes back to the original argument about INVESTING.......the brazillians are not the ones buying ...the Europeans are and they will travel further...so again as I have stated the biiggest bang for your buck is TAIBA because of the proximity to EACH other..It is all about who is investing...you need to know who your client is....you especially since you sell real estate......dwc
     
  15. JMBroad

    JMBroad New Member

    My mistake I assumed that people would want to buy in Brazil where Brazilians themselves are also buying. You are right - I do need to know who my client is - I just need to remember that everyone has their own type of clients. Everything we build is in locations where Brazilians would live themselves simply because in our state (RN) the demand from Brazilians by far outstrips the demand from overseas investors and it makes a safer investment exit strategy for the pure investor. I guess it all depends if the buyer is looking to invest or looking to buy a holiday home in the sun.

    As for my description - thank Rob that does make it clearer and I agree with your clarification.
     
  16. Blighty

    Blighty New Member

    Hello Blighty

    Just to let you know firstly that I am representing the developers there, so this is not exactly an impartial response. Apologies if some agents have not been able to give you a clear answer to your questions. The current position with the Caponga Beach development is that the infrastructure is completed, and we have built 1 small house on block 1 so as to get the electricity connected for the full site (although we will probably replace this or use as an office ahead of client construction). Someone had mentioned on this thread that the access road wasn't there, however I can confirm that a full tarmac road is completed and gives excellent access to both the village and the main road out to Cascaval.

    We have staff based in the house at the moment to provide basic security and maintenance. Approximately 150 of the plots are sold already, and development will hopefully start by the end of this year. We have the plans for a range of villas and apartment developments, and are currently putting together a construction schedule. At the moment we are completing the executive plans, and (just this week) received the initial full costings for the villa types, so can now progress to a first phase of construction schedules within a few months. This will be largely dictated by our early investors, however we have a good number of interested clients, and I would be confident that we’ll be building client houses by the end of the year.

    At my last visit there a few weeks ago, we met again with the architects and constructors, so this is progressing well. We are also setting up a formal management and maintenance company for the site which will include responsibility for security. This will be in place before the first client houses are constructed.

    I have lots of (badly taken) pictures of the site, of the entrance, and of the house that we built etc., and full plans of the villa types and revised costs etc. If you let me have your email, I’ll send these to you.

    I hope this update has been useful, but please do not hesitate to contact me should you require anything further.

    KR
    Stuart


    Hi Stuart,

    Please excuse my ignorance but is there a completion date on the amenities???
    You are being a bit "hazy" also on the dates on it.

    many thanks for the update on security etc
     
  17. Blighty

    Blighty New Member

    So AMENITIES will be approx 1-2 years,is that correct?
     
  18. StuartA

    StuartA New Member

    Yes, the additional amenities will follow the construction timetable. Construction at the front of the site (first 16 blocks) will commence at the end of this year, so the amenities will follow the same timetable, i.e. the site office, management services, and additional front-end amenities will coincide with the first completed construction phase. This should be within the next 12 months.
     
  19. Simon Eaton

    Simon Eaton New Member

    i believe the answer is that there are no amenities, however if some people build them, such as a hotel, then there will be amenities... perhaps.

    Thank you stuart for clarification.

    JMBroad, in your defense regarding previous statement regarding "knowing your clients", I think that the best investment in Brazil accounts for an entire spectrum of potential future buyers. Compared with the expected 100, 000 britains and 200,000 Europeans to own a house in Brazil, there are close to 200,000,000 brazilians that also need homes. To me, this seems a far more suitable resale market.


    Also - is everyone aware that buying plots in a site such as many discussed here, (sorry stuart but as your site is the reference i will use it), such as caponga - AND ALL THE OTHER LAND PROJECTS - means that roads are public and this prevents the site ever becoming a closed community... unless the roads are bought from the government - unlikely.

    This basically means that security is a problem when people are not builfing on their land. Also, by law SEMACE can revoke your building rights annually... and other environmental bodies such as SMAC in Rio RJ. So even with build consent you may actually still lose your license to build.... this is a genuine problem in 1 in 10 plots.


    Good luck whatever you do, but for me I just dont get the good feeling for that project, it seems a bit vague - then again, they are offering it for what it is... land.
     
  20. Simon Eaton

    Simon Eaton New Member

    just to add to my previous post... the licenses can be revoked until the masterplan is submitted, then you must follow their guidelines, or like many projects, face a half built site that is legally prevented from continuing, facing rip down or 2 year re application for licenses.

    As this is land, the developer, land owner, can not submit a masterplan as you do not know what to build. To get a hotel approved it can take years, plus the density issues. It seems as if it is all too far off for people looking for something ready in the next 2 years.

    This is to say it gets a license at all.

    I can personally say this as I applied for a license. One tree prevented me from building about 20%, i then had to re design, re submit, and i am still waiting. It has been a nightmare. the hotel would then not benefit the community as it is independent, and although you could say your land is near there, it is not actually in your community, as until a community is legally formed and until the land is all acquired including public roads, it is literally a street that is not built yet.

    The standard buyer is blinded by the imagination that they are buying a resort or buying something within a closed community, when this is not the case. They are literally buying one plot surrounded by many more.

    The current owner will have no influence on what they do with that land once it is sold. Also, architect plans cost about 40 000 to 50 000 BRL, sometimes more. Then the engineer fees. By replicating the same design throughout the site costs about 400 to 800 BRL, which is why most projects offer only 2 or 3 designs.

    I am quoting based on good architects...

    So much to learn before you get into a project like any of these.

    If i was you I would stick my money into an apartment or something you fully understand. If you need to ask questions on a forum like this, then land investment in a country like brazil is far too speculative for you, it is VERY HIGH RISK.

    Trust me, i know.
     
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