Brazil - Promotion, Hype and Facts

[Graymax]

I find your statement on Brasil being over promoted on UK tv a little hard to understand, I have seen one program dedicated to Northeast Brasil, and that was over a year ago, it was called uncharted territory, and featured the area around Bouzios, that is what sparked my interest in buying in Rio Grande do Norte, since then little or no more info on the region seems to have been shown, not even a repeat of that one, I obviously have not seen every program on tv, but do tend to check to see if there is anything relating to Brasil, but apart from the odd clips about Rio, nothing.You obviously see far more UK tv living in Natal, than I do living here in Yorkshire, please let me know when these programs are being shown, and I will definitely tune in.

 

[Dotty]

Hi Graymax,
It may be an idea to check all tourist destinations on Brasil for 2007/8 in every journal under travel and property and also places in the sun did lots of promoting and investment programmes ,magazines etc etc for the overseas also,along with word of mouth of people that have been to South America.You will be surprised how much has been done along with all the property fairs etc.Now considering most people are only just learning that we speak Portuguese here and not Spanish thats not bad.The real truth is what may be marvellous for some is not for others and thats it and the UK market is rok bottom with a lot of uncertainty and hugh dept,so what was fab 5 yrs ago is now not worth vey much here or in the uk.

 

[Golfingworld]

Everybody seems to be under a total illusion about NE Brazil. Firstly, you cannot get there cheaply by any method....Arkefly leaves from Amsterdam so from anywhere but NL add £150/€200 for parking, taxis, meals, connections and you are at the same price as TAP and that's your lot min £700..look at Dubai for the coming UK holiday weekend (pan Europe in fact) and there are flights as low as £250 return for the same distance as Natal/Lisbon. Natal is a destination which is well behind the competition, everything they have (or don't have) does not cater for the mass tourist market which Operators need. The hotels are generally poor and certainly not worth their star rating, there is little entertainment bar Salsa Street and one music bar on the beach which most Gringos don't know about. There is nothing for children. To get in and out of the airport is a scandal and I have only ever seen such poorly run security at Heathrow and Salvador. Just taking money is a nightmare as card cloning is rife and therefore carring cash and or t chqs is a real hassle and with rip off rates. As it happens I like Natal and the area, but nobody in their right mind would say it is easy as a tourist destination nor is it correct to say it has been over promoted. Most people I speak to in the Uk say "where"? It is for this reason that all the self imposed hype and confidence about the local property market is ridiculous...Natal and 100km each side is not and will not be a major tourist destination full stop.

With regard to Thomson, their flights are a "means to an end" in other words, they do not run the flights to make money, they run the flights to take customers who buy "all inclusive packages and excursions" to make money..they are a Tour Operator. So, full flights with people going to off plan properties will never be viable for them or any other charter airline as their is no incremental income..hence the reason why off plan rentals will never boom...it is too far away, unlike Europe where Ryanair for example have very low crew costs and very cheap handling..no baggage forexample...there is absolutely no comparison.

 

[michaelbush]

I guess we are all entitled to an opinion! Natal is, and will continue to be, a growing tourist destination, not just from Europe but from other parts of the world as well including Brasil. I have not met anyone who complains about the service or quality or hotels, which the tour operators use, either! Entertainment Ibiza style is not what everyone is looking for, and kids are generally happy playing on the beach. There are more places in the town centre with live bands (rock, reggae, popular,) than you would know about, and more night clubs (boate) with disco music than you know. Most weekends there are live shows in huge open air venues, which can hold 10-15000 people and are hugely successful, where the famous (in Brazil) bands play music of all types.

 

[Golfingworld]

Michael, you are right, but these venues are not what "bucket and spaders" on Thomson or T Cooke from the Uk want nor is it appropriate and it is about £15 in a cab into town.....the "inclusive tour business" is not about having to go into town to find a typically Brasilian bar or disco I am afraid. Likewise, have you been to Mexico (Cancun) Dom Rep (Baviero/Pto Plata),Thailand, Goa and seen the hotels and facilities on offer? Most UK long haul typical cheap vacations are based on ease, comfort and most importantly all inclusive accommodation...Natal does not have anything that compares to the above destinations. Add to that the nervousness about Brazil (crime etc) from the uninitiated and it is not a destination that will boom. Dom Rep is way way ahead of Brazil in all aspects. Again, if I may say, those associated with Natalseem to be blinkered to the real world and the real cheap long haul world is way ahead of NE Brazil.

 

[Dotty]

I could not agree more GW.as for pounding night life not Natal.It is not Ibiza.The people that attend a boate(club) are people who are young Brasilian stds maybe at a weekend and they are for the local people unless you are dragged there by a woman of the night,but there is not anything that can amuse a child for 5 minutes and as any parent will know they want to keep kids active and safe.A friend of mine just fell over an electric cable in a kids club fell and broke her arm and she was only walking in and she is 6 mths pregnant.Another woman was walking along the beach (2006 /7)and was shot in the foot for her money(outside Parque Costeira Hotel) she had none on her(she was a thomson client)another guy was shot last yr in ponta negra for money and ended up in the military hospital,maybe you can elaborate on that if you know about these incidents or speak to the Thomson reps .The safety issue is always the same in 3rd world countries none more so than Natal.Go and read the latest crime reports for more info.They did have a strong police presence after the shottings but there are far fewer around now which I cant quite understand if crime is on the up.

Michael, you are right, but these venues are not what "bucket and spaders" on Thomson or T Cooke from the Uk want nor is it appropriate and it is about £15 in a cab into town.....the "inclusive tour business" is not about having to go into town to find a typically Brasilian bar or disco I am afraid. Likewise, have you been to Mexico (Cancun) Dom Rep (Baviero/Pto Plata),Thailand, Goa and seen the hotels and facilities on offer? Most UK long haul typical cheap vacations are based on ease, comfort and most importantly all inclusive accommodation...Natal does not have anything that compares to the above destinations. Add to that the nervousness about Brazil (crime etc) from the uninitiated and it is not a destination that will boom. Dom Rep is way way ahead of Brazil in all aspects. Again, if I may say, those associated with Natalseem to be blinkered to the real world and the real cheap long haul world is way ahead of NE Brazil.

 

[Golfingworld]

Natal will always be a "singles" destination as the family facilities and security are not there. What Thomson have demonstrated is that they have voted with their feet and let First Choice take the Brazil market where they are strong and can make money. Natal's tourist industry is in a mess and it stumbles along.....if they cannot get Ponta Negra right what chance is there for the north and southerly coastlines...my guess, very little....which is why, if anyone intends to inves, go central Natal or PN and not up the coast as it will take 15 years to get it right up there.

 

[Graymax]

confused

Hi Graymax,
It may be an idea to check all tourist destinations on Brasil for 2007/8 in every journal under travel and property and also places in the sun did lots of promoting and investment programmes ,magazines etc etc for the overseas also,along with word of mouth of people that have been to South America.You will be surprised how much has been done along with all the property fairs etc.Now considering most people are only just learning that we speak Portuguese here and not Spanish thats not bad.The real truth is what may be marvellous for some is not for others and thats it and the UK market is rok bottom with a lot of uncertainty and hugh dept,so what was fab 5 yrs ago is now not worth vey much here or in the uk.

Dotty, once again you are going round in circles, you talk about places in the sun, I have seen virtually every program of A place in the sun, since 2000, and am currently watching the repeats on some obscure chanel, not once have I seen any mention of RGN, but I wait in hope, you base everything on hearsay, and what other people have said I don,t think you have come up with one sustainable fact not already mentioned on these forums, and repeatedly bad mouth Natal area, as if you want to keep it all to yourself, if it is so bad, why don,t you up sticks and go to Salvador or Rio or Florianopolis or indeed anywhere else, and slag these places off for a change.Which UK market is "ROK BOTTOM" and in "HUGH DEPT", because I and probably most other members are at a loss as to what the hell you are talking about.?.

 

[FCZ]

Well, I can tell that a property company made a half page advertising here in Dubai for the property show; and the only Brazilian city on their list was Natal, That's when I decided to cancel my family trip to Italy (paid all the fines for cancellation),and buy something in the NE of Brazil.
Dotty, just for the record, Brazil is not a third-world country. JM already correct you but you keep forgetting, or don't understand ...
San Francisco easily goes in my top 5 cities of the world (disclosure: I'm not gay! not that there is anything wrong with that),nevertheless I was robbed there from Sheraton to the airport. My Argentinian friend was beaten to the floor, by two guys using guns, just for his pocket money. Still I love San Francisco!!
Anyway, I doubt that any foreigner doesn't know that there is violence in Brazil, they might be surprised that it is actually less than they would expect, especially outside Rio-Sao Paulo.

 

[JMBroad]

Swapped Dotty for GW on my ignore list after reading some of GW's more recent posts, although GW and I still don't share the same view of the future for the NE of Brazil, the posts seem to be a lot more temperate as of late, whereas Dotty's babbling is getting on my nerves.

 

[RalphJ]

Well, I can tell that a property company made a half page advertising here in Dubai for the property show; and the only Brazilian city on their list was Natal, That's when I decided to cancel my family trip to Italy (paid all the fines for cancellation),and buy something in the NE of Brazil.
Dotty, just for the record, Brazil is not a third-world country. JM already correct you but you keep forgetting, or don't understand ...
San Francisco easily goes in my top 5 cities of the world (disclosure: I'm not gay! not that there is anything wrong with that),nevertheless I was robbed there from Sheraton to the airport. My Argentinian friend was beaten to the floor, by two guys using guns, just for his pocket money. Still I love San Francisco!!
Anyway, I doubt that any foreigner doesn't know that there is violence in Brazil, they might be surprised that it is actually less than they would expect, especially outside Rio-Sao Paulo.

FCZ;

Common misnomer, and unfortunately, even amongst brazilians. Sao Paulo and Rio get a lot of bad press because of the crime there, but it's because they are the largest cities. If you want statistics you will see that Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo capitol aren't even in the top 100 most dangerous cities in Brazil! Proportionally speaking the most dangerous cities/towns in Brazil are normally small places in the interior of states and suburbs of capitols such as Camaragibe, Pernambuco which is a suburb of Recife where the murder rate there last count was 181 per 100,000.

Murder in Brazil Is Not Just a Big-City Problem Anymore
Written by Elma Lia Nascimento
Wednesday, 28 February 2007
It's common knowledge that while Brazil's largest cities, like São Paulo, Rio and Salvador, are plagued by violence the rest of the country still offers plenty of places, which are islands of quiet and safety. This common knowledge, however, has just been debunked.

A study by the Organization of Ibero-American States shows that violent crimes in Brazil are moving from the capitals to the country's interior. Murders, the report reveals, are now spread throughout 556 or 10% of the 5560 Brazilian municipalities.

Rio, São Paulo and all other densely populated cities don't make into the 10 worst cities for violent death. They don't appear even among the 100 worst cities. Rio de Janeiro shows up at 107th place with 57.2 murders per 100,000 and São Paulo only makes it at 182nd place with 48.2 homicides per 100,000.

While falling in the big cities the murder rate has been steadily increasing in the hinterland, however.

The 10 most violent municipalities in Brazil don't even include a capital city. Among them only two in fact are in metropolitan areas: Serra, in the state of Espírito Santo and Ilha de Itamaracá, in Pernambuco.

The research, which was a joint effort with Brazil's Health Ministry, shows that Brazilian champion of murder is not a big town, but Colniza, a small 13,000-residents city in the state of Mato Grosso, which has had over 20 murders a year for the last three years, putting it at the top with a rate of 165 deaths per 100,000 residents.

All numbers are from 2004, the last year in which the statistical data have been consolidated.

The 556 cities analyzed in the study concentrate 71.8% of all the murders in Brazil. While Colniza appears as number 1, the last town in the list, Nova América, in the state of Goiás, appears with 29.8 homicides per 100,000, which still puts it inside an area that the Inter-American Development Bank (IADB) classifies as presenting "total rupture of the public safety mechanisms." These are cities where the population neither trusts the police nor believes they can solve their problems.

A recent Violence Map drawn by the Brazilian government has shown that while the Brazilian population increased 16.5% in the decade going from 1994 to 2004, the number of murders during the same period grew 48.4%, from 32.603 deaths a year to 48,374.

Some of Brazil's most violent places are new towns created with the deforestation of the Amazon and they include besides Colniza, Juruena, São José do Xingu and Aripuanã, all Mato in Grosso and Tailândia, in the state of Pará, where lawlessness seems to be the rule. They are in fact nobody's land.

Naturally, the number of murders is not exactly small in the capitals. Only seven from Brazil's 26 capitals do not show up among the 556 meanies and the metropolitan areas of the capitals of Rio de Janeiro, Pernambuco and Espírito are some of the most lethal areas in the country. Since 1998, Pernambuco and Espírito Santo have appeared in the Violence Map among the most dangerous states to your life.

"These are cities where there are huge fights for the land, involving Indians, deforestation and the illegal appropriation of areas. These are very remote regions, of difficult access, where the government and laws are absent," says the report's author, sociologist Julio Jacobo Waiselfisz, for whom Brazil's violence has reached unbearable highs.

Commenting the study, Brazil's Health Minister, Agenor Alves, said that "the data are not encouraging at all." "This is an alarming worrisome situation," he stated, adding that the new numbers will be useful in helping the government to adopt the right policies to lessen the problem of violence in Brazil.

With 48.374 homicides in 2004, Brazil is considered the world's 4th worst country in number of murders just behind Colombia, Russia and Venezuela. And this number could be worse if the real numbers were in. Waiselfisz believes that there are 15% more homicides in Brazil than the statistics show.

Thousands of deaths are never reported to the authorities. In this case, as he believes, the victims are buried in clandestine cemeteries or just abandoned in the jungles and rivers where they are never found or accounted for.

Top 30 municipalities where murder is a problem in Brazil (average rate for 2002/2004):

City, State, Murder Rate per 100,000, Ranking

Colniza MT 165.3 1st
Juruena MT 137.8 2nd
Coronel Sapucaia MS 116.4 3rd
Serra ES 111.3 4th
São José do Xingu MT 109.6 5th
Vila Boa GO 107.0 6th
Tailândia PA 104.9 7th
Aripuanã MT 98.2 8th
Ilha de Itamaracá PE 95.1 9th
Macaé RJ 94.5 10th
Foz do Iguaçu PR 94.3 11th
Itaguaí RJ 92.7 12th
Recife PE 91.2 13th
Tunas do Paraná PR 86.8 14th
Itaboraí RJ 83.7 15th
Cariacica ES 83.3 16th
Cabo de Santo Agostinho PE 82.2 17th
Santa Cruz do Xingu MT 81.7 18th
Duque de Caxias RJ 80.9 19th
Ribeirão PE 79.4 20th
Rio Bonito do Iguaçu PR 79.3 21st
Vitória ES 78.6 22nd
Nova Iguaçu RJ 78.5 23rd
Vicente Dutra RS 78.1 24th
Cotriguaçu MT 77.4 25th
Buritis RO 77.3 26th
Jaboatão dos Guararapes PE 76.9 27th
São Sebastião SP 76.9 28th
Agrestina PE 75.8 29th
Diadema SP 74.6 30th

Rio de Janeiro RJ 57.2 107th
São Paulo SP 48.2 182nd

And I saw JM's post about Brazil and not being classified as third world, it was the last ranked country under the list of supposed first world countries. And I don't want to get into a pissing contest but when one has the massive problems that Brazil has with education and infrastructure, it's impossible for me to think of it as 1st world.

 

[JMBroad]

However to compare it to Rwanda or Côte d'Ivoir or Sierra Leone might be a bit too much too, so maybe go in between and call it a developing country or an "emerging market".

I mean when was the last time a jeep full of children carrying AK-47's drove through Aracajú?

 

[FCZ]

Ralph,

I will certainly not classified Brazil as a first world country!! It's is classified as "upper middle income" country by the World bank, or emerging economy, those economies that are, in theory, in the pipeline to be among the big ones. My point is that Dotty insists in call "third-world" clearly with the purpose of given a negative connotation, that is not correct.

 

[RalphJ]

However to compare it to Rwanda or Côte d'Ivoir or Sierra Leone might be a bit too much too, so maybe go in between and call it a developing country or an "emerging market".

I mean when was the last time a jeep full of children carrying AK-47's drove through Aracajú?

Go to the favelas in Rio and you'll see similiar....but not in Aracaju. Only 20 somethings GATE (police) hanging out the windows of their cars carrying their automatic weapons while flying down the road at 140 km/hour in a 60.

I guess my interpretation of the differences of 1st and 3rd world are more in education, quality of life, opportunity, etc. When a country consistantly ranks in the top 3-5 worst countries on the planet in things like minimum salary, equal distribution of income, violent deaths, it's really hard for me to consider that first world.

 

[FCZ]

Agree on Income distribution, but top 3-5 among minimum salary and education?! No way!

 

[JMBroad]

Seems a bit harsh too 3-5 on violent deaths?

What about

Niger
Sierra Leone
Côte d'Ivoir


.. in fact many of the below I'd expect more violent deaths than in Brazil, at least ratio of population...

Senegal
Eritrea
Nigeria
Tanzania, U. Rep. of
Guinea
Rwanda
Angola
Benin
Malawi
Zambia
Côte d'Ivoire
Burundi
Congo, Dem. Rep.
Ethiopia
Chad
Central African Republic
Mozambique
Mali
Niger
Guinea-Bissau
Burkina Faso
Sierra Leone

 

[RalphJ]

Agree on Income distribution, but top 3-5 among minimum salary and education?! No way!

Didn't say education FCZ, but, within the last year they did a survey of 30+ developing countries in quality of education, and Brazil came in dead last. It was all over the news here and Lula had to comment on it and admitted that Brazil's educational system needs a lot of improvement.

Quite an understatement.


I said that Brazil is consistantly in the worst 3-5 countries in the world in "minimum salary, equal distribution of income, violent deaths". And if you do the research and see the statistics over the last 5 years you will find that unfortunately, this is indeed so.

 

[robh]

Well, I can tell that a property company made a half page advertising here in Dubai for the property show; and the only Brazilian city on their list was Natal, That's when I decided to cancel my family trip to Italy (paid all the fines for cancellation),and buy something in the NE of Brazil.
Dotty, just for the record, Brazil is not a third-world country. JM already correct you but you keep forgetting, or don't understand ...
San Francisco easily goes in my top 5 cities of the world (disclosure: I'm not gay! not that there is anything wrong with that),nevertheless I was robbed there from Sheraton to the airport. My Argentinian friend was beaten to the floor, by two guys using guns, just for his pocket money. Still I love San Francisco!!
Anyway, I doubt that any foreigner doesn't know that there is violence in Brazil, they might be surprised that it is actually less than they would expect, especially outside Rio-Sao Paulo.

The worst I have ever had happen to me was that some little kids picked my pocket on NYE when I was in the middle of a massive crowd on the street. I spotted them in the act but they got away and I couldn't have caught them anyway as they just ran in between peoples legs through the crowd.
They only got 20€, which probably fed them for a week, and a visa card that was maxed.

Even in Rio we have never had any trouble, but we make sure not to wear expensive jewellery or watches or flash wads of cash, and also didn't walk any distances at night, always caught cabs. A trick I learnt there was not to speak to your partner when walking down the street at night cause otherwise the kids target you straight away because you are a foreigner.

Salvador I found pretty bad in the old town and the centre. Fortunately the only thing that happened to me there was a taxi driver showed me a new trick on how to palm money. He got R$2 out of me which I let him keep as payment for the lesson .

I have lived in a lot of places which are really bad for crime (I mean getting woken up by police helicopters hovering over our house at 3 am quite a lot and on occasions riots in our street as well),so I can spot dodgy people straight away and there were a lot more in Salvador than Natal.

 

[RalphJ]

Seems a bit harsh too 3-5 on violent deaths?

What about

Niger
Sierra Leone
Côte d'Ivoir


.. in fact many of the below I'd expect more violent deaths than in Brazil, at least ratio of population...

Senegal
Eritrea
Nigeria
Tanzania, U. Rep. of
Guinea
Rwanda
Angola
Benin
Malawi
Zambia
Côte d'Ivoire
Burundi
Congo, Dem. Rep.
Ethiopia
Chad
Central African Republic
Mozambique
Mali
Niger
Guinea-Bissau
Burkina Faso
Sierra Leone

Check it out JM....I can get the stats for you later. Columbia is normally at the top of the list and Brazil usually comes in 3rd. We have close to 60,000 people that die here per year from violent deaths. I'm talking about sheer numbers here, not ratio.

 

[Golfingworld]

I think Dotty is realistic with some of the things he says.....much as I don't agree that Natal/NE Brazil has been extensively promoted, what he does do, like me is tell the real story and not the "Premiership Managers...let's take the positives out of this defeat".

The reality is that many of the over cooked positives about Natal area are between untruths and spin and these have been heavily debated here which is exactly what this site is available....then the unitiatiated buyer (which is most people) can make a valued judgement as to how where and why they might invest. In my view, he is realistic about Natal and I have seen and experienced similar things..what, for example is the definition of a "Third World Country", it is to us (allegedly) in the first world, somewhere where things don't quite work as we would expect and that there is a risk element, lack of protection and facilities that one would expect in our cherished first world. Brazil has a mixture of 1st 2nd and 3rd world from what I can see, but there is no doubt that petty crime is a problem all over and the more Gringos that go there there more it will increase the desire for a quick buck. What I have seen in NE Brazil is an apathy towards a real development plan (apart from Bahia) and so his ramblings on Natal are very valid in my view.

The reality is that as there was a lot of cheap land and close links to Europe the new European Property Conquistadores arrived 3/5 years ago then set about trying to convince all those that hadn't already invested in Murcia that Natal was going to be the next quick property off plan buck. They did this by carefully tailoring facts and alleged benefits such as airports, bridges, roads, etc etc....when people like myself or Dotty arrived on the scene we bacame like the little boy in "The Kings New Set of Clothes" (Danny Kaye..for those not old enough) whilst all the seller set about defending their poorly constructed positive story. The fact is, NE Brazil (which is all I know apart from Rio) is difficult, nowhere near as cheap as it seems, and certainly not moving fast into the first world of tourist destinations that all the sellers would like to claim. This is a flight thread and flights are key for overseas investors, logically, and there aint none regular or cheap...so it is going tocost youan arm and a leg to get there before you get mugged, raped or pillaged....and before you tenants folow you...that is the true story and Dotty isn't far off the mark..it's just that many don't wan to hear the negatives as it inhibits sales! End of story.