Blindness and stupidity when investing in Brazil

Discussion in 'Brazil Property' started by surfingbrazil, Nov 6, 2007.

  1. michaelbush

    michaelbush New Member

    Hi Ralph
    I have been told in a number of banks that without residency there can be no bank account. The RNE number is what they require from a person, the CNPJ for a company. A company registered in Brasil will be alocated a CPNJ number and can open a bank account. You do not need to have a visa to open a company but you will need a brasilian national to be appointed administrator or someone with a resident visa. With the RNE number you will need proof of residency, utility bills etc, and address, similar to opening an account in Europe. They may well also want proof of tax status, tax returns, bank statements from overseas accounts etc. The whole situation is ludicrous and leaves wide open the opportunities to cheat foreigners. The system sucks and President Lula should look at ways to improve it or lose potential investors here.
     
  2. debzor

    debzor New Member


    Quite correct. In fact the banks look more towards your permanent residency and will open an account while you are waiting for a permanent RNE number. I have both business and personal accounts in Brazil, and one thing they wanted for the personal one was proof of employment.

    This situation is absurd and I am sure it will change in due course once the numbers of foreign investors are noticed.
     
  3. RalphJ

    RalphJ New Member


    sorry, meant RNE. And one can only get an RNE number with his permanent visa.
     
  4. RalphJ

    RalphJ New Member


    It actually has gotten worse. Before the last year one could find banks, even banco do brasil, that would open accounts for foreigners without an RNE number. They won't today. Because of new beurocracy (anti-money laundering measures) banks must perform on accounts without RNE numbers banks are simply refusing to open accounts without a brazilian identification number.
     
  5. JMBroad

    JMBroad New Member

    Opening a current account - according to the central bank, there is no restriction for foreigners to open current accounts in Brasil. Any hindrances and obstacles being raised are the sole decision of the banks in question.

    Foreign Seller/Buyer - when the seller and the buyer of the property are non residents in Brazil, the payment may be made overseas however with restrictions regarding tax and property registry.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2007
  6. surfingbrazil

    surfingbrazil New Member

    Translation by JMBROAD:

    # Foreign Seller/Buyer - when the seller and the buyer of the property are non residents in Brazil, the payment may be made overseas however with restrictions regarding tax and property registry.#

    it is not 100% accurate; it should be like this:

    #…………………………… however taking into consideration taxation and property registration issues #

    Basically what it means is that you still have to pay the taxes due to Brazil and sign a notary deed in Brazil to complete the sale.
     
  7. beenthere

    beenthere Guest

    This is the way you can sell your property that did not have the payment registered with the central bank properly.
     
  8. JMBroad

    JMBroad New Member

    Right you are, your translation is more precise
     
  9. awahee123

    awahee123 Banned

    I don't think blind investing is limited to Brazil,if you look around the different forums people are doing this on a daily basis even though they are being told to visit the country in question before even thinking of investing.
    Funny really when you think about it as no one would even consider parting with £300 for a new washing machine without first having a look at it.
    So why are we depositing thousands of pounds for something we haven't even seen?
    Beyond belief,but believable.
     
  10. michaelbush

    michaelbush New Member

    The problem is that in most cases there is nothing to be seen!! However I would agree that people should at least visit the country and get the feel of it before committing to buy something off-plan, that will not be ready for at least a couple of years.
     
  11. awahee123

    awahee123 Banned

    Hello michaelbush,

    Agreed there usually isnt anything to be seen,however going to see where the stated development would be is a must,as you say you need to get a feel for the place.
    My point is people seem to treat buying property abroad with a pinch of salt until thay get their fingers burnt.
    We have some buyers who havent even visited and sampled the culture of the country they are investing in,they are purely doing this on the back of hear say.
     
  12. surfingbrazil

    surfingbrazil New Member

    Some interesting information dated 13 DEC 07 , source UOL web financial news,

    ###
    Investir em imóveis para locação rendeu mais do que poupança
    14h46

    SÃO PAULO - Investir em imóveis para locação rendeu, neste ano, mais do que a poupança. A título de comparação, enquanto a locação teve rentabilidade de 0,8%, a poupança rendeu algo em torno de 0,6%, na média dos meses de 2007. Segundo informações divulgadas pelo Secovi-SP (Sindicato da Habitação do Estado de São Paulo), a valorização das locações foi resultado da baixa oferta e da alta procura.

    "Com a escassez de imóvel, a rentabilidade medida pela relação preço de locação versus valor do imóvel subiu. Trata-se de taxa atrativa porque equivale à rentabilidade anual superior a 10%", explicou a entidade no documento de divulgação do estudo. Enquanto estima-se uma inflação em torno dos 4% para este ano, a pesquisa de locação residencial registra aumento do aluguel em torno de 7%, o que garante uma remuneração real de quase 3%, excluída a inflação.

    Números do setor
    Comprovando que a demanda está aquecida, o Secovi-SP detalhou que o IVL (Índice de Velocidade de Locação) - que registra o número médio de dias necessários para o imóvel estar locado - aponta melhor desempenho das casas, com 10,7 dias, em relação aos apartamentos - 17 dias. Na média, o giro é de 12,3 dias. Considerou-se, nesse caso, unidades habitacionais novas ou muito bem conservadas.

    Segundo o IBGE (Instituto Brasileiro de Geografia e Estatística), há cerca de oito milhões de contratos de locação no País, sendo 6,4 milhões na área habitacional. Cerca de 21,6% das moradias localizadas na cidade de São Paulo estão enquadradas nesse perfil.

    De acordo com a Fecomercio-SP (Federação do Comércio do Estado de São Paulo), brasileiros desembolsarão, no acumulado do ano, R$ 170 bilhões com o pagamento do aluguel. Isso deve ser quase dez vezes mais do que o total de dinheiro liberado pelos bancos para o financiamento imobiliário.

    Garantia do contrato
    Por fim, o sindicato detalhou que o fiador ainda lidera a garantia dos contratos, com participação média de 49,2%. O depósito representa 35,1%, e o seguro-fiança, modalidade recente, fica com uma fatia de 15,7%.
    ###

    Quick translation

    Real estate rentals yield: 0,8 % per month
    Savings account yield: 0,6 % per month

    Average time it takes to rent a house: 10,7 days
    Average time it takes to rent an apartment: 17 days

    49,2% of the total approximately 8 millions rental contracts have a financial guarantee from a third part.


    Something else, LAST but not least:
    The law for abolition of CPMF TAX has been enacted.
    As from 1st JAN 2008 the CPMF will be history.

    This CPMF charges 0,38% on virtually all financial payments and transfers trough Brazilian banks.
     
  13. MarikaAR

    MarikaAR New Member

    Full article on CPMF for those interested.


    "Key Brazilian tax is thrown out
    By Gary Duffy
    BBC News, Sao Paulo



    The government stands to lose billions of dollars in revenue a year
    The Brazilian government has suffered a major defeat over a key financial transactions tax which accounts for $20bn (£9.8bn) in annual revenue.

    It fell four votes short of at least 49 needed in the Senate to renew the tax, known as the CPMF.

    The failure to renew the tax, which expires on 31 December, could have implications for important anti-poverty programmes in the country.

    It is also a significant blow for President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva.

    Unpopular tax

    As a constitutional measure, the renewal of the tax until 2011 needed the support of at least 49 of 81 senators. However, only 45 senators voted in favour.

    The longstanding tax represented about 10% of the government's revenue.

    However, the CPMF, which involved a charge on all financial transaction such as bank withdrawals, was unpopular among many sections of Brazilian society.

    Critics said the tax was meant to be a temporary measure to subsidise health case but the revenue was used for other things and it required poorer sections to pay as much as the better off.

    Ministers conceded that Brazil needed to lower its tax burden, but argued that removing such a major source of revenue that was vital to maintain many social policies was not the way to reach this objective.

    The defeat came despite the election a short time earlier of a government ally, Garibaldi Alves, as the new president of the Senate.

    His predecessor, Renan Calheiros, also a supporter of President Lula, had to resign over a long-running corruption scandal.

    However, with local elections due in the next year, it seems opposition parties were not in the mood for compromise over tax.

    The defeat has also exposed the government's inability to manage a key part of its own agenda. "
     
  14. RalphJ

    RalphJ New Member

  15. JMBroad

    JMBroad New Member

    So if Brazil is so harshly dangerous as some of the posts mentioned in this thread mention how is it that a European with limited Portuguese can spend New Years Eve in a favela partying with the locals and not have any troubles?

    :eek:
     
  16. cwashiii

    cwashiii New Member

    My man, this sounds like the most sensible thing I've heard. I live in the USA and I don't ever hear of anyone going to Natal or anywhere else in Northeast Brazil. They all talk about Rio, Sao Paulo or Salvador. I like your advice and wondered if you could tell me about being a condo in Sao Paulo. My wife is from there and we want to have a place to go when we go, but still be able to rent out when we are not there.

    How is the market in Sao Paulo?
     
  17. debzor

    debzor New Member

    With respect, Salvador is in the Northeast of Brazil, but if you want to hear from Americans (and other nationals) who have been here please pm your email address and I will gladly pass your info on. Whereabouts in the US are you?

    Sorry I cannot help you with Sao Paulo.
     
  18. michaelbush

    michaelbush New Member

    I understand that Sao Paulo is one of the highest priced parts of Brasil (if you want a reasonably safe area). On the other hand Salvadore is safer cheaper and all year round warm climate! (they have relatively cold winters in Sao Paulo). The North East attracts Europeans because of the all year warmth.
     
  19. WESTMIDS33

    WESTMIDS33 Banned

    Touche

    Hi ralphj,

    Interesting post buddy. Im 100% behind what you and surfinbrazil have said. Its great to hear someone who obviously lives in the country speak their mind rather than agents who sit thousands of miles away predicting. They should have to prove and not try and make you feel guilty for speaking out.

    Regards

    Westmids33
     
  20. Celt

    Celt New Member

    Hi Cwashii,

    The market in Sao Paolo has performed very well in recent years and a purchase there should yield good long-term capital growth. As Michael said there are plently of good areas to choose from and a continuous supply of interesting new developments coming onto the market. The weather can get a bit chilly during the winter for a week or two but bear in mind that the temperature can top 30 C on some days too.
     
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