Blindness and stupidity when investing in Brazil

[robh]

That is interesting Rob. I wonder why they were exhibiting at the recent show last month in Natal. I asked the question as well if they had their licences. The answer was no and they were only able to take reservations.
Interestingly this land is the same land that Raimundo lost out on, and by coincidence I was at the Madrid show last year 2007, and was talking to some guy who was going on about there being an ownership dispute/problem with the Promaga land at Ma-Noa. Their project is nothing on the scale the GNG LDC ones though. It is actually a good scheme. I hope thes ort out the problems soon.

Were they also showing Lago Azul? This one is being built and is nearing completion soon, I have been on site a few times and it is coming along very nicely.

 

[Dotty]

The problems here from what I am reading back and forth is that developers go ahead and advertise,take deposits with the hope of everything will be alright in the end,but unfortunately this is not the case.So whilst Promage is supposedly waiting for the so called go ahead (which CAN mean they are not even the owners and may never be)especially with Brasilian paperwork,documents,etc,etc people go on with the sales chat and mislead clients.Just glorifying something that just may not happen!And all the while clients think that they will get a nice piece of land or apt,whatever.

 

[RalphJ]

Ma-Moa is now being developed by promaga. Promaga - Contruimos Futuro

My understanding is that Promaga are still aquiring land title, which would tell us they are not the same owners as in 2001. They do not have the final license as yet as they cant get that until they are official owners of the land!!! If you look on their website, they are still promoting Ma-Noa as Pre-release. This is how Grupo Sanchez went about Gran Natal Golf and we are all well aware of what has happened there, so prospective buyers of Ma-Noa be warned!!!

As for LDC, well all I know about this is the developer. Grupo Nicolas Mateos. GrupoNicolasMateos • Vive tu hogar - Lagoa do Coelho Resort

Thanks

Let me let you guys in on a little secret, from someone that has purchased land in Brazil, had/has all the architectural and engineering plans made to build 3 condo's with 107 units total, and about 3/4 of the way through the process of obtaining all licenses and permits to build from the local, state, and federal entities, which that process began a little over 18 months ago.......one can't even BEGIN the approval process until he has a land title in hand!

Hence, if one does not have a land title, naturally you can have your projects made and ready, but you can't submit them for approval in any local, state, or federal dept. without an escritura.....kinda common sense eh?

So, once these folks finally get their deed in hand, you can safely bet that they'll never have full approvals for at least another 18 months....and that's being very optimistic.

 

[robh]

Let me let you guys in on a little secret, from someone that has purchased land in Brazil, had/has all the architectural and engineering plans made to build 3 condo's with 107 units total, and about 3/4 of the way through the process of obtaining all licenses and permits to build from the local, state, and federal entities, which that process began a little over 18 months ago.......one can't even BEGIN the approval process until he has a land title in hand!

Hence, if one does not have a land title, naturally you can have your projects made and ready, but you can't submit them for approval in any local, state, or federal dept. without an escritura.....kinda common sense eh?

So, once these folks finally get their deed in hand, you can safely bet that they'll never have full approvals for at least another 18 months....and that's being very optimistic.

Here is another secret: It is pretty much the same everywhere else in the world.

 

[RalphJ]

Here is another secret: It is pretty much the same everywhere else in the world.

Naturally, but when people start talking about having final approvals and don't even have a deed.....

 

[PAUL-brasil]

The problems here from what I am reading back and forth is that developers go ahead and advertise,take deposits with the hope of everything will be alright in the end,but unfortunately this is not the case.So whilst Promage is supposedly waiting for the so called go ahead (which CAN mean they are not even the owners and may never be)especially with Brasilian paperwork,documents,etc,etc people go on with the sales chat and mislead clients.Just glorifying something that just may not happen!And all the while clients think that they will get a nice piece of land or apt,whatever.

Very true Dotty, LDC the very example, advertise and doing just that for 3 years and still NADA! From what Ive seen small off plan developments seem to get built and more or less on time, IMO smaller developments if priced correct and in a decent area near some infrastructer can be a good investment with a much better get out plan as there are more open to the internal market. Who wants to live in a huge holiday complex in the middle of no where!

 

[Dotty]

When did they Promaga legally buy the Water Park because as far as I know it belongs to Brasilians from Parana.

I am glad we never sold it then.... I also hope they sort their problems out as they are in a nice spot and owning a water park next door sort of adds to the attraction.

 

[JMBroad]

When did they Promaga legally buy the Water Park because as far as I know it belongs to Brasilians from Parana.

Not sure they do or did but they not only told us they owned the land, but the water park, had all licenses required, scoffed when we mentioned another development we were working on which is fully licensed and told us that they will never get their licenses (the one that did already).

Lago Azul is indeed very nice, great location and coming along nicely. But it's not a Promaga development.

 

[PeixeGato]

Did anyone read the article in the NY Times last week about the softening real estate market in Europe? In particular, it mentioned the overbuilding that occurred on Spain's Costa del Sol and that people who have reserved off-plan properties are now desperate to unload them.

I just wonder how this will impact the market in Brazil, particularly in the NE, where building has been occurring at a very rapid pace. Given that these properties are primarily marketed toward Europeans and investors, I wonder if the demand will not soon dry up.

Anyone given this any thought?

PG

 

[Dotty]

In the city of Natal itself property has been going up rapidly ,but this is mainly for the expected Brasilian market.Locals buy them up in blocks and then try to sell them off(it was easier in the past but is becoming much more difficult now) because they are over priced and there are far too many.Along the beaches are some but not masses of developments.We have a map of properties that shows future developments,but more than half will not happen and the others really tend to be small condominiums,so yes as GW said the chickens are already coming home to roost!

Did anyone read the article in the NY Times last week about the softening real estate market in Europe? In particular, it mentioned the overbuilding that occurred on Spain's Costa del Sol and that people who have reserved off-plan properties are now desperate to unload them.

I just wonder how this will impact the market in Brazil, particularly in the NE, where building has been occurring at a very rapid pace. Given that these properties are primarily marketed toward Europeans and investors, I wonder if the demand will not soon dry up.

Anyone given this any thought?

PG

 

[robh]

Lago Azul is indeed very nice, great location and coming along nicely. But it's not a Promaga development.

You are indeed correct, I forgot all about that, it is some financing/marketing deal they have with the developer.

 

[robh]

Did anyone read the article in the NY Times last week about the softening real estate market in Europe? In particular, it mentioned the overbuilding that occurred on Spain's Costa del Sol and that people who have reserved off-plan properties are now desperate to unload them.

I just wonder how this will impact the market in Brazil, particularly in the NE, where building has been occurring at a very rapid pace. Given that these properties are primarily marketed toward Europeans and investors, I wonder if the demand will not soon dry up.

Anyone given this any thought?

PG

I and I am sure a lot of other agents and developers have given this a lot of thought.

The short answer is that no, demand for Brazil has not dried up, there are still plenty of investors around. Demand has very much gone down for some types of developments (especially in Ponta Negra) but definitely not for others.

 

[Dotty]

Brazil has not dries up-I do not know about the other states but I do know about Natal and the coast.Overseas Investment is not as high as anticipated due to not understanding fully how Brasil does things,principally legislation in Brasil.Why , because building approvals when given the go ahead take a very,very long time,so running backwards and forwards to sort out problems then becomes ones worse nightmare. Just of late another announcement in the journal of a complex has been embargoed ,so demand would inevitably go down in developed and undeveloped areas.

I and I am sure a lot of other agents and developers have given this a lot of thought.

The short answer is that no, demand for Brazil has not dried up, there are still plenty of investors around. Demand has very much gone down for some types of developments (especially in Ponta Negra) but definitely not for others.

 

[michaelbush]

Hi Dotty
Can you please let us know which development was said to be embargoed and the reason quoted in the journal.

 

[Christopher Jewell]

New member here. I'm Chris and I'm interested in the Florianopolis area but I have read not a word about it on this forum. Where can I find any current listings for a single family or Apartment-condominium unit?

 

[Dotty]

Have you been to Florinopolis before?You could take a look at anything in Yahoo.com.br under casa/apartmentos pra vende em Floinopolis or Santa Caterina.Stunning place and very European too!

New member here. I'm Chris and I'm interested in the Florianopolis area but I have read not a word about it on this forum. Where can I find any current listings for a single family or Apartment-condominium unit?

 

[Christopher Jewell]

Thank you for your reply, Dotty - No, I have never been to Florianopolis. I have remained exclusively in Sao Paulo. I hear a lot of talk about the NorthEast Brasil and Bahia in particular, but I think I prefer a more (Florida, USA) atmosphere that I hope to find in the Southern Latitude. I will research using your suggestions. Obrigado.

 

[Dotty]

Well if you are based in SP then not only is it a perfect location you will enjoy it very much.The architecture is very German and quaint in many parts,hilly in the city center and very westernized too.I love it there and it is so much cheaper than the North .If you go to Florinopolis try and visit Antonios Fish restaurant because for that the trip is worth it alone!Quality on the line of Familia Mancini(classic) SP!

Thank you for your reply, Dotty - No, I have never been to Florianopolis. I have remained exclusively in Sao Paulo. I hear a lot of talk about the NorthEast Brasil and Bahia in particular, but I think I prefer a more (Florida, USA) atmosphere that I hope to find in the Southern Latitude. I will research using your suggestions. Obrigado.

 

[Dotty]

Just to inform all post readers and members.Florionoplis has the highest standard and quality of living in Brasil . And it is has a very organized city and State(S.C) with proper seasons.QUOTE=Dotty;46868]Well if you are based in SP then not only is it a perfect location you will enjoy it very much.The architecture is very German and quaint in many parts,hilly in the city center and very westernized too.I love it there and it is so much cheaper than the North .If you go to Florinopolis try and visit Antonios Fish restaurant because for that the trip is worth it alone!Quality on the line of Familia Mancini(classic) SP![/QUOTE]

 

[FCZ]

Thank you for your reply, Dotty - No, I have never been to Florianopolis. I have remained exclusively in Sao Paulo. I hear a lot of talk about the NorthEast Brasil and Bahia in particular, but I think I prefer a more (Florida, USA) atmosphere that I hope to find in the Southern Latitude. I will research using your suggestions. Obrigado.

Christopher, Dotty is right over here. Florianapolis would be my first choice if I had vacations during the Brazilian Summer. But I get vacations July-August, and then it is cold and quite windy. Around Florianopolis there are several wonderful cities/beaches as well. But it seems to me that prices are higher than the NE of Brazil.