Ancient Sands - Investor's thoughts ...

[crombiestone]

Ancient Sands looks like a lovely development but I do think that prices are very high .

I also think that expected increases of 30% on these high prices in three years is optimistic .

Please bear in mind that the prices of off plan one bed apartments in Golf West phase 3 were launched at 64000GBP in November 2006 ! The Current price for a 1 bed apt in Sabina which is essentially Golf West Phase 4 is around the same.

Thats 18 Months with no price increase !

In reality the price actually fell to as low as 44,000 GBP in July 2007 ,this is partially due to the strengthening of the £ against the $ . I do also feel ,however ,that overbuilding is affecting the prices and will affect reasle prices too .

I know of many who have bought in El Gouna with the hope of making a quick profit on resale who are having problems finding buyers .

I love having my little place in El Gouna and I do think it is an ideal place to own property . I bought it ,because I like the resort and would like to live there ,with no real concern about investment and profit .

Whilst I cant deny that the price of my apartment ( in theory ) has increased since I bought it . I think the past 18 months indicate that rapid rises in El Gouna are over and those expecting quick profit will be disappointed .

 

[Organics1]

Ancient Sands looks like a lovely development but I do think that prices are very high .

I also think that expected increases of 30% on these high prices in three years is optimistic .

Please bear in mind that the prices of off plan one bed apartments in Golf West phase 3 were launched at 64000GBP in November 2006 ! The Current price for a 1 bed apt in Sabina which is essentially Golf West Phase 4 is around the same.

Thats 18 Months with no price increase !

In reality the price actually fell to as low as 44,000 GBP in July 2007 ,this is partially due to the strengthening of the £ against the $ . I do also feel ,however ,that overbuilding is affecting the prices and will affect reasle prices too .

I know of many who have bought in El Gouna with the hope of making a quick profit on resale who are having problems finding buyers .

I love having my little place in El Gouna and I do think it is an ideal place to own property . I bought it ,because I like the resort and would like to live there ,with no real concern about investment and profit .

Whilst I cant deny that the price of my apartment ( in theory ) has increased since I bought it . I think the past 18 months indicate that rapid rises in El Gouna are over and those expecting quick profit will be disappointed .

Couldn't agree more crombiestone!

It's nice to hear the objective views of someone who hasn't "reserved" a plot or is involved in the marketing of this project.

Would love to hear the views of anyone else who's not attached to the development.

 

[Georgina]

Ancient Sands looks like a lovely development but I do think that prices are very high .

I also think that expected increases of 30% on these high prices in three years is optimistic .

Please bear in mind that the prices of off plan one bed apartments in Golf West phase 3 were launched at 64000GBP in November 2006 ! The Current price for a 1 bed apt in Sabina which is essentially Golf West Phase 4 is around the same.

Thats 18 Months with no price increase !

In reality the price actually fell to as low as 44,000 GBP in July 2007 ,this is partially due to the strengthening of the £ against the $ . I do also feel ,however ,that overbuilding is affecting the prices and will affect reasle prices too .

I know of many who have bought in El Gouna with the hope of making a quick profit on resale who are having problems finding buyers .

I love having my little place in El Gouna and I do think it is an ideal place to own property . I bought it ,because I like the resort and would like to live there ,with no real concern about investment and profit .

Whilst I cant deny that the price of my apartment ( in theory ) has increased since I bought it . I think the past 18 months indicate that rapid rises in El Gouna are over and those expecting quick profit will be disappointed .

I totally agree with all of this. I have lived in El Gouna for five years and seen the market change so much. Before the completion of Golf West, Upper Nubia, South Marina project, etc. any resales were snapped up at ridiculously high prices because they were so rare. Since then so many people purchased in these new areas for investment only. And if they have sold they have made a massive profit. But not all are selling because of the choice now. And the choice is growing everyday. And with the prices getting so high more buyers will be tempted outside El Gouna and accept the risks.

But, if you are buying as a place to live then it looks fantastic and there is nowhere else in the world I would rather live than in El Gouna. It is exciting to see the new projects like the new Super Yacht marina develop. I can't wait to see it completed. It is not so good if you are living in Abu Tig Marina next door to the construction. The dust and sand everyday is unbelievable. My friend bought an apartment in Abu Tig to rent out for holiday lets but it has been impossible so another friend has rented it long term at a reduced price. She was not allowed to put up a fence or Tamr Henna on her roof terrace to protect it from the dust. So you get a wicked exfoliation everytime you use the jacuzzi along with the wake up call as workers arrive early in the morning and the lorries play their air horns everytime they pass each other. And the loss of a Mangroovy beach sea view to apartment blocks. I am sure when it is finished it will be wonderful to look over though. And the sand will come in your house in El Gouna regardless of whether you are near a construction site, but the quantity is sole destroying having cleaned the English pub at the back of Abu Tig Marina on several occasions.

And what about the construction workers? Do their salaries increase in relation to the selling price of the property? I followed a guy up the stairs yesterday carrying a pile of marble tiles on his shoulder in bare feet. They all seem so happy though. And there were no signs of sh1t anywhere so hopefully they are given proper facilities now

 

[Jeremy Sturgess]

I totally agree with all of this. I have lived in El Gouna for five years and seen the market change so much. Before the completion of Golf West, Upper Nubia, South Marina project, etc. any resales were snapped up at ridiculously high prices because they were so rare. Since then so many people purchased in these new areas for investment only. And if they have sold they have made a massive profit. But not all are selling because of the choice now. And the choice is growing everyday. And with the prices getting so high more buyers will be tempted outside El Gouna and accept the risks.

But, if you are buying as a place to live then it looks fantastic and there is nowhere else in the world I would rather live than in El Gouna. It is exciting to see the new projects like the new Super Yacht marina develop. I can't wait to see it completed. It is not so good if you are living in Abu Tig Marina next door to the construction. The dust and sand everyday is unbelievable. My friend bought an apartment in Abu Tig to rent out for holiday lets but it has been impossible so another friend has rented it long term at a reduced price. She was not allowed to put up a fence or Tamr Henna on her roof terrace to protect it from the dust. So you get a wicked exfoliation everytime you use the jacuzzi along with the wake up call as workers arrive early in the morning and the lorries play their air horns everytime they pass each other. And the loss of a Mangroovy beach sea view to apartment blocks. I am sure when it is finished it will be wonderful to look over though. And the sand will come in your house in El Gouna regardless of whether you are near a construction site, but the quantity is sole destroying having cleaned the English pub at the back of Abu Tig Marina on several occasions.

And what about the construction workers? Do their salaries increase in relation to the selling price of the property? I followed a guy up the stairs yesterday carrying a pile of marble tiles on his shoulder in bare feet. They all seem so happy though. And there were no signs of sh1t anywhere so hopefully they are given proper facilities now

You all (Organics Georgina and Crombiestone) make some valid points. The fact remains there is an active resale market in Gouna compared with anywhere else in the Red Sea area of Egypt. Approx 4 % of the existing housing stock turned over last year at Gouna which is close to European levels of housing turnover. Sure there are some people who are finding it harder to sell but I think a lot depends on the Phase in which you bought and how sensibhle is your asking price. Certainly I know many very happy people who bought in White Villas, Abu Tig Marina and the New Marina myself included. Particularly those who got in early on in the particular phase. You need to be selective about where you buy even in Gouna - not everything appreciates at the same rate or is equally appreciated by others after it is built. I know Ancient Sands will be the highest quality development at Gouna in every sense and that prices will reflect this in years to come.

The other thing to remember is that the old hands like Georgina and Crombiestone presumably bought some years ago before Gouna had really taken off. For them it is possibly even harder to foresee how prices could rise any further at Gouna. (I felt this way about London property in about 1999 ! how wrong I was)

Someone with fresh eyes looks at it completely differently - elite egyptians love Gouna and all want to buy here. I see no reason why prices in Gouna shouldnt reach European levels or higher. There will continue to be a rerating of Gouna - the Middle East is booming - lots of money being made - much more than in Europe. Gouna is a primary recipient of all this new wealth. It will also be the case that the type of English people who buy in Gouna in future will be different (wealthier) from some of the English who have bought in the past. This wealthier european clientele wouldnt consider buying anywhere else on the Red Sea but at Gouna. I believe Orascoms strategy has positioned Gouna on a different level from the other resorts on the Red Sea. Hence the increasing prices which price out a lot of people. Some of the earlier bargain hunters who bought here are not the target market for Gouna any longer. Gouna is attracting wealthier europeans now who will fit in much better with the wealthy egyptians who buy here. A smart strategy I believe but one which will no doubt upset some of the old hands who would prefer the status quo.

Certainly I think that anyone who believes 87 k furnished is too much for a prime studio on an amazing gated golf / lagoon development in Gouna is not the kind of buyer Ancient Sands wants or needs. These people are better off buying elsewhere.

 

[Organics1]

Certainly I think that anyone who believes 87 k furnished is too much for a prime studio on an amazing gated golf / lagoon development in Gouna is not the kind of buyer Ancient Sands wants or needs. These people are better off buying elsewhere.

 

[Georgina]

Gouna is attracting wealthier europeans now who will fit in much better with the wealthy egyptians who buy here. A smart strategy I believe but one which will no doubt upset some of the old hands who would prefer the status quo.
.

Originally El Gouna was built to develop a community. The rich Egyptians that bought here in the early days typically work in Cairo and cannot afford to live here hence their villas sit dark and empty most of the year. The market was then targetted at Brits at property exhibitions in the UK, who typically still live in the UK. Because of the higher prices they are paying for their property they want higher rental returns. This has meant that a lot of European people working in El Gouna cannot afford to live in El Gouna and dive instructors, etc. are sharing villas in Bustan, the workers village. So will these newly targetted wealthy buyers be living here or just buying as an investment like everyone else. And surely they will want a high return for rentals so who is the target there? With the price of flights going up the cost of a self catering holiday is already proving more expensive than an all inclusive five star hotel. Or maybe these wealthy Europeans will be like the wealthy Egyptians and leave the properties empty. And with the rising cost of services I hope they are wealthy enough to do that.

And with the workers village at the back of Upper Nubia right next to the planned construction, will that remain? Someone has to stay in El Gouna and keep everything running. Bars and restaurants are already close to European prices. But the basic ingredients are Egyptian prices. Wages are Egyptian prices. There are already wealthy Europeans living here full time. They became wealthy by watching how they spend their money. I cannot mention another forum on here but I guess you already belong to it for Gounies and can see how unhappy a lot of them are at the price increases.

I hope this new Super Yacht marina and construction site will not become a ghost town?

 

[Jeremy Sturgess]

Originally El Gouna was built to develop a community.

Agreed Georgina but I would add an "upscale" residential community, and one that stands apart from a lot of the cheap stuff being developed elsewhere.

Prices are higher here than elsewhere in Egypt but for very good reason. My villa will probably cost me only 7.5k this year to run incl all utility costs, security costs, satelite tv, daily garden and pool maintenance, garbage, resort maintenance, 2 live in staff etc. Frankly if it cost treble that it would still be very good value.

I am sorry if you are unhappy. Perhaps youve been away from home for too long.

 

[ThomasCurtains]

In my opinion it's the best investment opportunity presently available on the Red Sea.

Well I'm with Sanchez on this. I’ve taken the plunge and reserved a unit after ‘pontificating’ (had to get the Thesaurus out for that one) for ages – had looked hard at Hania Beach, Marsalam and Pyramids 2 and some stuff in Sahl and Spain and Portugal. I’d been thinking about getting a cheap and cheerful place to have and use for holidays and then something just to have and rent out. I’ve always liked El Gouna and was just waiting to see what these guys came up with. I really like it to be honest, dead easy to understand all the jargon and I like the fact it just goes into a rental management program that they sort – no bills to pay apart from your own taxes which will equate to not much and then 45 days use, which will easily cover my families holidays. Great payment terms also - 20% down/20% after 6 months and 60% on completion. Spent a lot of time thinking about it having visited the area for the last few years but in the end the fact it’s an established resort played a big part in my decision, just gives me that much more confidence. Have read the posts about prices peaking and resales being slow. Believe me I’d not be buying if I didn’t think the capital gain was there or I couldn't resell in time, but I for one like the fact this place is moving more upmarket. Yes it is more expensive and in the end it’s about your own personal choice. Benny my dog will be happy, he’s been kicked round the garden the last few months! Cheers TC

 

[Georgina]

I am sorry if you are unhappy. Perhaps youve been away from home for too long.

No Jeremy, I love living in El Gouna. I am very, very happy. I am home.

I am just trying to give a reality check to this forum. There are not that many people on here that are living full time in Egypt. There are many people on here waiting anxiously for their properties to be completed. And there are a lot of people selling property on here. I am just trying to put forward points that should be considered before investing such large amounts and take off the sugar coating. Maybe I should keep quiet. It is Egypt after all

 

[Sanchez]

Hi all,
TC .. great to hear from another AS purchaser. Congrats !!
Which unit?

Organics ... I think I know the perfect investment for you.
It's called HSBC. Stick your money in there. There's no risk, no stress, a solid 5-6% pa less tax ; - )
I get the feeling you haven't been to El Gouna before (guessing, but just a hunch). I think you should take a trip there if you haven't. It will help you get a view of the full picture.

Georgina, I kind of agree with most of what you're saying. I can even see that as a true Gouna who lives there full-time, people who are perceived as just trying to make a quick buck from buying / selling property in El Gouna might slightly annoy you.

El Gouna is an amazing place. I would love to live there for a bit. Maybe one day when I can afford to retire : - )

Georgina I do agree with you again that selling and buying in El Gouna is not quite as easy as most people think at the moment. As Jeremy said though, it does have a reasonable resale market and I think it will only improve with time.

Orascom are starting to do their own resales now. It's early days but I understand there is going to be a central database of all property in El Gouna for resale. I'm not sure of the exact details but this along with the assistance of the Ancient Sands Developers should help resales down the track a bit. Access to mortgages in Egypt should also make a big difference.

Keep the thoughts coming though everyone ..... it's all interesting stuff.

Dave

 

[ThomasCurtains]

Hi all,
TC .. great to hear from another AS purchaser. Congrats !!
Which unit?

Hi Sanchez, Unit 14 building 2 - only a studio but it's really a 1-bed. Views should be spectacular! Like the location of the development as well on the most northern part of El Gouna. Didn't want to chance the hire car going onto the site but had a good walk around instead. Seems flat from a distance but it has loads of little hills and valleys and the spot for the hilltop village is really high.

 

[Organics1]

Organics ... I think I know the perfect investment for you.
It's called HSBC. Stick your money in there. There's no risk, no stress, a solid 5-6% pa less tax ; - )
I get the feeling you haven't been to El Gouna before (guessing, but just a hunch). I think you should take a trip there if you haven't. It will help you get a view of the full picture.


Dave

Sanchez...Thanks for the advice on where I should "stick my money". I had never thought of that

Good luck with your investment

 

[Lsab]

Hi Steph and welcome to the forum.

I would like to point out though, that you should read more of Georgina's posts before coming to that conclusion - even ones further back on this thread, where she shows much concern for Egyptian workers. I think that the comment 'it is Egypt after all' meant nothing more than things work differently there than they do in the UK. Also I think that a responsible forum should be able to show opinions from all sides. We don't have a balanced view if those that have had a negative experience in any way, shape or form are not allowed to express it. Don't you agree? I think once you get to know Georgina on the forum you will see that she is not the person you think.

Do you live in Hurghada yourself? We always welcome the views of people living there...in fact we welcome all views, no matter where you live Hope to hear more from you

 

[crombiestone]

You all (Organics Georgina and Crombiestone) make some valid points. The fact remains there is an active resale market in Gouna compared with anywhere else in the Red Sea area of Egypt. Approx 4 % of the existing housing stock turned over last year at Gouna which is close to European levels of housing turnover. Sure there are some people who are finding it harder to sell but I think a lot depends on the Phase in which you bought and how sensibhle is your asking price. Certainly I know many very happy people who bought in White Villas, Abu Tig Marina and the New Marina myself included. Particularly those who got in early on in the particular phase. You need to be selective about where you buy even in Gouna - not everything appreciates at the same rate or is equally appreciated by others after it is built. I know Ancient Sands will be the highest quality development at Gouna in every sense and that prices will reflect this in years to come.

The other thing to remember is that the old hands like Georgina and Crombiestone presumably bought some years ago before Gouna had really taken off. For them it is possibly even harder to foresee how prices could rise any further at Gouna. (I felt this way about London property in about 1999 ! how wrong I was)

Someone with fresh eyes looks at it completely differently - elite egyptians love Gouna and all want to buy here. I see no reason why prices in Gouna shouldnt reach European levels or higher. There will continue to be a rerating of Gouna - the Middle East is booming - lots of money being made - much more than in Europe. Gouna is a primary recipient of all this new wealth. It will also be the case that the type of English people who buy in Gouna in future will be different (wealthier) from some of the English who have bought in the past. This wealthier european clientele wouldnt consider buying anywhere else on the Red Sea but at Gouna. I believe Orascoms strategy has positioned Gouna on a different level from the other resorts on the Red Sea. Hence the increasing prices which price out a lot of people. Some of the earlier bargain hunters who bought here are not the target market for Gouna any longer. Gouna is attracting wealthier europeans now who will fit in much better with the wealthy egyptians who buy here. A smart strategy I believe but one which will no doubt upset some of the old hands who would prefer the status quo.

Certainly I think that anyone who believes 87 k furnished is too much for a prime studio on an amazing gated golf / lagoon development in Gouna is not the kind of buyer Ancient Sands wants or needs. These people are better off buying elsewhere.

Im'not sure if your comments were meant to be insulting but your suggestion that El Gouna is attempting to attract a better class of buyer did come across that way to me .

As Georgina has already pointed out ,it was the lack of full time residents that initially caused problems in El Gouna . All those rich Egyptian owners who wanted a retreat from Cairo ,but then they only visit a few times a year .All those full time businesses , the restaurants and bars were empty most of the time .

More affordable property was made available to encourage more full time residents and to some extent its working but many of the properties were bought by Brits as investments and remain empty most of the time . At least these properties are affordable to long term renters .Nonetheless each time I visit El Gouna ,there seem to be more visitors to the bars and restaurants ( Despite the AI hotels trying to kill the other businesses by keeping their guests inside the hotels confines).

Trying to turn El Gouna more Elitist will not improve the economy of the town as they too will make a yearly visit ,their properties remaining empty for the rest of the time . And rental prices will be beyond the price range of local renters.

El Gouna is without doubt the loveliest location on the red sea for me , to be an Elite destination like say Dubai , will take nothing short of a miracle,the build qualiy in Dubai is in a different League to Egypt ,another Golf course and a couple of "six or even seven" star hotels . ( gradings that Dubai invented themselves that dont really exist ) arent the answer . Some decent permanent roads would be a good start .

It seems again that as soon as anyone tries to inject some realism onto this forum ,even if they are "old timers " and long term residents with a good knowledge of El Gouna they are shot down by "fresh eyed forward thinking " masquerading as sales hype .

 

[samui13]

Can anyone get a good list of resales. We are buying offplan and I would love a resale instead it would be so much easier but I cant find anything on the net?????

I have found a couple in hurgharda centre but not much at all.

 

[SuziQ2708]

Can anyone get a good list of resales. We are buying offplan and I would love a resale instead it would be so much easier but I cant find anything on the net?????

I have found a couple in hurgharda centre but not much at all.

Give it about 5 years Samui and I suspect there will be several resales in the Hurghada/El Gouna area. With all the new developments going on and off-plan discounts etc. there are a lot of investers taking up the opportunity, once the developers move further a field the resale market should start to flurish

Just to agree with Crombie, I got the impression that Jeremy was implying El Gouna is just for snobs too Sorry Jeremy if we read you wrong

 

[Jeremy Sturgess]

Im'not sure if your comments were meant to be insulting but your suggestion that El Gouna is attempting to attract a better class of buyer did come across that way to me .

As Georgina has already pointed out ,it was the lack of full time residents that initially caused problems in El Gouna . All those rich Egyptian owners who wanted a retreat from Cairo ,but then they only visit a few times a year .All those full time businesses , the restaurants and bars were empty most of the time .

More affordable property was made available to encourage more full time residents and to some extent its working but many of the properties were bought by Brits as investments and remain empty most of the time . At least these properties are affordable to long term renters .Nonetheless each time I visit El Gouna ,there seem to be more visitors to the bars and restaurants ( Despite the AI hotels trying to kill the other businesses by keeping their guests inside the hotels confines).

Trying to turn El Gouna more Elitist will not improve the economy of the town as they too will make a yearly visit ,their properties remaining empty for the rest of the time . And rental prices will be beyond the price range of local renters.

El Gouna is without doubt the loveliest location on the red sea for me , to be an Elite destination like say Dubai , will take nothing short of a miracle,the build qualiy in Dubai is in a different League to Egypt ,another Golf course and a couple of "six or even seven" star hotels . ( gradings that Dubai invented themselves that dont really exist ) arent the answer . Some decent permanent roads would be a good start .

It seems again that as soon as anyone tries to inject some realism onto this forum ,even if they are "old timers " and long term residents with a good knowledge of El Gouna they are shot down by "fresh eyed forward thinking " masquerading as sales hype .

Oh dear Crombiestone !

Why do you have to bring Class into this ? I used the term "wealthier" not "classier" and I think we all know that they do not mean the same thing.

For the record my post was not in any way meant to be insulting and I'm sorry if you have interpreted it so. Read it again with your own insecurities firmly in control and I'm sure you will agree.

 

[Jeremy Sturgess]

Give it about 5 years Samui and I suspect there will be several resales in the Hurghada/El Gouna area. With all the new developments going on and off-plan discounts etc. there are a lot of investers taking up the opportunity, once the developers move further a field the resale market should start to flurish

Just to agree with Crombie, I got the impression that Jeremy was implying El Gouna is just for snobs too Sorry Jeremy if we read you wrong

Ditto my response to Crombie

 

[crombiestone]

Oh dear Crombiestone !

Why do you have to bring Class into this ? I used the term "wealthier" not "classier" and I think we all know that they do not mean the same thing.

For the record my post was not in any way meant to be insulting and I'm sorry if you have interpreted it so. Read it again with your own insecurities firmly in control and I'm sure you will agree.

Ok so now your last sentence is insulting or is it condescending or perhaps both , The use of the word class in my post was incorrect . Thanks for pointing that out .

See below for the Wikipedia definition of Elite ?

Elite (also spelled Élite) is taken originally from the Latin, eligere, "to elect". In sociology as in general usage, the élite is a relatively small dominant group within a large society, which enjoys a privileged status envied by individuals of lower social status.

 

[SuziQ2708]

Ok so now your last sentence is insulting or is it condescending or perhaps both , The use of the word class in my post was incorrect . Thanks for pointing that out .

See below for the Wikipedia definition of Elite ?

Elite (also spelled Élite) is taken originally from the Latin, eligere, "to elect". In sociology as in general usage, the élite is a relatively small dominant group within a large society, which enjoys a privileged status envied by individuals of lower social status.

Ditto Crombiestone's response