Blindness and stupidity when investing in Brazil

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surfingbrazil

New Member
Every investor MUST have a map, I said………….
Well, here you get all the maps from the Brazilian ministry of transports ( DNIT)
FREE OF CHARGE:

DNIT— Mapas Rodoviários
 
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debzor

debzor

New Member
"The 10 most violent municipalities in Brazil don't even include a capital city. Among them only two in fact are in metropolitan areas: Serra, in the state of Espírito Santo and Ilha de Itamaracá, in Pernambuco." Ralph J


I do not wish to challenge the IPEA figures or those of anyone else, however...

We do need to be so, so careful when quoting other peoples' stats out of context or without seeing the whole picture, don't we?

I mean - Ilha de Itamaraca high on the murder list, while Natal sleepy and safe? Apparently so - until you see the bigger picture...

Firstly, these figures relate to 2002-2004, a long time ago in Brazil politics and a lot has changed since.

I live on the island of Itamaraca. Resident population - 15,800, murders so far this year -0, but, to be fair, there was one stabbing resulting in a massive armed police response and a small wound. Why the OTT police response? Well, hidden in the island's 45 square miles and protected nature reserves, well away from residential areas, are 3 closed prisons. None of the 3000 [quoted figure, possibly up to 5000] inmates ever escape (the massive armed presence, shooting practise, etc,),but, as with prisons everywhere, they are a crime hotspot. But because they are in the municipality of Itamaraca they are included in our figures!

But quoted out of context the figures give the island a bad impression. The prisons are due to close and the inmates moved to the interior because of the bad press, but, like so many other Brazilian political promises, this has yet to come to fruition.

I would be far more interested in the recent crime figures in Natal given its growth over the past 5 years, its attraction tho the poor seeking any kind of work and the massive increase in under age sex crimes.

Stats quoted out of context from up to 5 years ago in a fast moving country like Brazil might appear very impressive, but you know all about spin from the UK, right?
 
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michaelbush

New Member
I have to say that I was also very surprised at the statistics!! I visited Itamaraca some 3 years ago, and also Maria Farinha. I found the area really lovely and the people, though poor very amiable. The beaches are really lovely too, and property was very cheap then. It is the sort of place you can live in. The prison as you say is very secure and presents no safety problem. I have also visited several other small villages on the coast and each of them has a charm, very different to the touristy areas of Ponta Negra and Pipa. I have no idea of the crimes relating to assaults and burglaries in these types of places, but since everyone knows everyone, I guess incidences would be lower than the cities where ladrones travel away from home to commit crime, where they are not recognised!
 
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RalphJ

New Member
Deb....I certainly am not trying to "spin" anything. As everyone can plainly see, these articles were written by Brazilians and factual statistics were published from both the Brazilian Ministry of Health and Justice. And naturally, like statistics anywhere, one can assume that these numbers are "best case scenario", especially here in Brazil, where admittedly thousands of people are murdered every year unknowingly....they just disappear. And also, here in Brazil we are just beginning to keep what could be termed "accurate statistics". At least most are in a realistic ballpark today. Ten years ago statistics for many things didn't even exist, or were so far incorrect it was ludicrous to even discuss them.


Point being that Brazil is a very dangerous place to live. And foreigners in particular have to be very careful when coming here to live or spend significant time. As this is not england and it is not the U.S. And people cannot "live" here in Brazil and have the same habits as they did in their home countries.

And you are very right about one thing....our 'ole friend "beenthere"(LOL, don't think he's been to brazil very much) couldn't be more incorrect about stating Natal being the safest place in Brazil....far from it. I would even debate his add-on comment about it being the safest capitol city in brazil today. Today being the key word for the very reason you mentioned Debzor.
 
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PeixeGato

New Member
RalphJ - You're my HERO (swoon). You have come here to save us all from the bad people in Brazil and we just don't seem to appreciate it. Shame on us!

PG
 
debzor

debzor

New Member
Deb....I certainly am not trying to "spin" anything. As everyone can plainly see, these articles were written by Brazilians and factual statistics were published from both the Brazilian Ministry of Health and Justice. And naturally, like statistics anywhere, one can assume that these numbers are "best case scenario", especially here in Brazil, where admittedly thousands of people are murdered every year unknowingly....they just disappear. And also, here in Brazil we are just beginning to keep what could be termed "accurate statistics". At least most are in a realistic ballpark today. Ten years ago statistics for many things didn't even exist, or were so far incorrect it was ludicrous to even discuss them.


Point being that Brazil is a very dangerous place to live. And foreigners in particular have to be very careful when coming here to live or spend significant time. As this is not england and it is not the U.S. And people cannot "live" here in Brazil and have the same habits as they did in their home countries.

And you are very right about one thing....our 'ole friend "beenthere"(LOL, don't think he's been to brazil very much) couldn't be more incorrect about stating Natal being the safest place in Brazil....far from it. I would even debate his add-on comment about it being the safest capitol city in brazil today. Today being the key word for the very reason you mentioned Debzor.

My apologies, RalphJ, I was not intending to suggest that you were trying to 'spin' anything, rather that the statistics themselves can be misleading if read out of context.
 
debzor

debzor

New Member
I have to say that I was also very surprised at the statistics!! I visited Itamaraca some 3 years ago, and also Maria Farinha. I found the area really lovely and the people, though poor very amiable. The beaches are really lovely too, and property was very cheap then. It is the sort of place you can live in. The prison as you say is very secure and presents no safety problem. I have also visited several other small villages on the coast and each of them has a charm, very different to the touristy areas of Ponta Negra and Pipa. I have no idea of the crimes relating to assaults and burglaries in these types of places, but since everyone knows everyone, I guess incidences would be lower than the cities where ladrones travel away from home to commit crime, where they are not recognised!

Sir, you are well travelled and well informed!!

It is a fantastic area to live in, and every month we welcome a couple more Europeans (looking mainly for holiday homes or investments),who do not want the over-commercialism and hype of Natal and other similar cities and areas that have been mentioned.

Remarkably, many seasoned Brazil property hunters, having explored elsewhere, buy here after only being on the island for a few hours!!! Must be something in the water...

Property prices are still similar to 3 years ago - today I offered the equivalent of £15,000 for a 3 bed 2 bath detached property in a quiet up market area, 30metres from the beach, in need of a bit of tlc, with patios, terraces, BBQ area and gardens, access to front and rear. Probably have to settle for a little more, and will need to spend another £3K to make it into a great little investment.

Now compare that to a £40-70K off plan 2 bed apartment out of town, in the middle of a complex that may never happen?
 
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RalphJ

New Member
RalphJ - You're my HERO (swoon). You have come here to save us all from the bad people in Brazil and we just don't seem to appreciate it. Shame on us!

PG


No problem Peixe!;)

Talking to my friend Kevin Scott in London at this moment. The guy that took a bullet in the femoral artery in his leg and lost around half of the blood in his body before the police arrived here in Aracaju last April in his "fully secure" beachfront condominium. He's wanting me to help him to sell his house....go figure. Problem is, how the hell can he get the money out of the country when he paid an agent in England.....in his cuecas?
 
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michaelbush

New Member
Hi Ralph,
I sympathise with your friend's predicament. I believe the Brasilian authorities ( Receita Federal) are well aware of some of the illegal practices adopted by some sales companies. It may be possible to remedy the position if he can produce all documentation for the purchase, proof of the bank transfer of monies to the Agent, the builders or promotors name and CPNJ etc- the purchase contract and escritura showing the declared amount (I assume the sale was not fully declared or why would they pay outside of Brasil). As you say the transaction was not legal, - if the purchase money was clean, then it is possible to make a declaration, and possibly a denuncia against the sales company. Is the guy now a resident? If so then he has a bank account. He cannot take reais out easily or legally as you know. He really needs a friendly official to recognise his innocence in the affair. If you want you can skype me "michaelbush". I can tell you a story.........
 
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RalphJ

New Member
Hi Ralph,
I sympathise with your friend's predicament. I believe the Brasilian authorities ( Receita Federal) are well aware of some of the illegal practices adopted by some sales companies. It may be possible to remedy the position if he can produce all documentation for the purchase, proof of the bank transfer of monies to the Agent, the builders or promotors name and CPNJ etc- the purchase contract and escritura showing the declared amount (I assume the sale was not fully declared or why would they pay outside of Brasil). As you say the transaction was not legal, - if the purchase money was clean, then it is possible to make a declaration, and possibly a denuncia against the sales company. Is the guy now a resident? If so then he has a bank account. He cannot take reais out easily or legally as you know. He really needs a friendly official to recognise his innocence in the affair. If you want you can skype me "michaelbush". I can tell you a story.........

I appreciate your offer of help Michael. And no, Kevin was not able to get his residency, nor were any of the english investors at Viva Vida since they ALL paid an agent in England and not an entity here in Brazil. He does have his contract of buy/sell. But one of the problems is that the agent in England, a guy by the name of Howard Davis, doesn't respond to any of the people that purchased from him at Viva Vida since he took off with part of their purchase money and only returned it (to another agent-property bond, lol, an entirely different story) after the police caught up to him. So trying to get any help whatsoever from Howard Davis, such as copies of bank transfers, is out of the question. One of the english homeowners even attempted to sue Howard Davis only to find out that his business was based out of Scotland and she was advised it would be very costly and time-consuming to go after him there. From what I've heard he closed his previous business and just opened another one...new name, new website, and back in business!
 
debzor

debzor

New Member
No problem Peixe!;)

Talking to my friend Kevin Scott in London at this moment. The guy that took a bullet in the femoral artery in his leg and lost around half of the blood in his body before the police arrived here in Aracaju last April in his "fully secure" beachfront condominium. He's wanting me to help him to sell his house....go figure. Problem is, how the hell can he get the money out of the country when he paid an agent in England.....in his cuecas?

There are a couple of options for your unfortunate friend as I see it:

1/ large suitcase on the way home

2/ re-invest elsewhere in Brazil

3/ talk to Jose Santiago. I know he is currently dealing with a case from Itamaraca where the sale of a car has required the extraction of funds from Brazil to abroad. Very complicated but might be possible
 
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RalphJ

New Member
There are a couple of options for your unfortunate friend as I see it:

1/ large suitcase on the way home

2/ re-invest elsewhere in Brazil

3/ talk to Jose Santiago. I know he is currently dealing with a case from Itamaraca where the sale of a car has required the extraction of funds from Brazil to abroad. Very complicated but might be possible

Thanks Deb....we've considered all of the above. I even know Jose, have spoken to him before...very knowledgeable guy. He doesn't want to re-invest in Brazil so if we can't get something arranged through Banco Central legally, suitcase may be the only way. And naturally, as everyone knows, one takes a helluva chance carrying 40-50K sterling in ones suitcase. Matter of fact, he'd probably have to take the majority in reais.
 
debzor

debzor

New Member
Thanks Deb....we've considered all of the above. I even know Jose, have spoken to him before...very knowledgeable guy. He doesn't want to re-invest in Brazil so if we can't get something arranged through Banco Central legally, suitcase may be the only way. And naturally, as everyone knows, one takes a helluva chance carrying 40-50K sterling in ones suitcase. Matter of fact, he'd probably have to take the majority in reais.

Possibly multiple trips using friends, etc, say $10K per...?
 
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RalphJ

New Member
Possibly multiple trips using friends, etc, say $10K per...?

could do that as well. There are 33 english that purchased at this condominium. Normally the majority come here this time of year. Naturally many of them have become friends. Sure he could get several of them to help him take it back. What's the max you can enter england with in cash? In the U.S. it's 10K U.S. Is it 10K sterling in England? If so, that's definitely an option.
 
debzor

debzor

New Member
could do that as well. There are 33 english that purchased at this condominium. Normally the majority come here this time of year. Naturally many of them have become friends. Sure he could get several of them to help him take it back. What's the max you can enter england with in cash? In the U.S. it's 10K U.S. Is it 10K sterling in England? If so, that's definitely an option.

I know the US and Brazil are $10K max so I would stick to that. Why risk it for a few more trips?
 
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surfingbrazil

New Member
Ref: money in cash
You are all confusing things here.

Let us clarify one thing: it is NOT illegal to carry more than 10.000,-USD into the US.
What is illegal is not to make a due declaration to the US Customs if your money is above this amount.
Similar laws apply in most EU countries with differents maximum amount of cash that are exempted of declaration, depending of the country.
It is important of course, to know the limit and to declare the excess.

Unless you are in a DEA, IRS or CIA wanted list, the customs could not care less whether it comes from a real estate sale or a poker play.

However what is illegal is to leave Brazil with 10.000,-USD in cash, if you did not declared it upon arrival.
Again, here the limit exempted of declaration IS NOT 10.000,-USD, but 10.000,-BRL
( REAIS ),as it is clearly stated in the Brazilian Customs form you all get.

Forget bringing a huge amount of REAIS in cash out of Brazil. It is totally illegal and they are virtually worthless in Europe. Although some banks will change Reais in Europe, the rate will outrageous.

In Brazil, when such a need arises, some people contact a “dolero”. This option is much better than all the other options you people are mentioning.
Forget Sterling, today the 500 Euro note is king !
 
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RalphJ

New Member
Ref: money in cash
You are all confusing things here.

Let us clarify one thing: it is NOT illegal to carry more than 10.000,-USD into the US.
What is illegal is not to make a due declaration to the US Customs if your money is above this amount.
Similar laws apply in most EU countries with differents maximum amount of cash that are exempted of declaration, depending of the country.
It is important of course, to know the limit and to declare the excess.

Unless you are in a DEA, IRS or CIA wanted list, the customs could not care less whether it comes from a real estate sale or a poker play.

However what is illegal is to leave Brazil with 10.000,-USD in cash, if you did not declared it upon arrival.
Again, here the limit exempted of declaration IS NOT 10.000,-USD, but 10.000,-BRL
( REAIS ),as it is clearly stated in the Brazilian Customs form you all get.

Forget bringing a huge amount of REAIS in cash out of Brazil. It is totally illegal and they are virtually worthless in Europe. Although some banks will change Reais in Europe, the rate will outrageous.

In Brazil, when such a need arises, some people contact a “dolero”. This option is much better than all the other options you people are mentioning.
Forget Sterling, today the 500 Euro note is king !

Well don't think that one is not in for a lot of questions on arrival in England from Brazil carrrying and declaring 70,000 Euros!! Especially when Banco Central has NO record of you sending the money!

One question just might be....what were you doing, selling drugs?:eek:
 
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surfingbrazil

New Member
INTERESTING NEWS from Banco Central do Brasil

the most relevant are:

1/ Foreigners non-residents are entitled to have a current account in Brazil

2/ When a non-resident sells Brazilian real state to another non-resident the payment could take place outside Brazil

Quote "[

Reunião com Banco Central para esclarecer dúvidas sobre remessas de lucro internacionais
30 de maio de 2007
Adit se reúne com Banco Central para esclarecer dúvidas sobre remessas de lucro internacionais
No último dia 06 de fevereiro, em Brasília, o presidente da Associação para o Desenvolvimento Imobiliário e Turístico e Imobiliário do Nordeste (ADIT NORDESTE),Felipe Cavalcante, se reuniu com o Chefe do Departamento de Normatização do Banco Central, Geraldo Magela, e com a assessora sênior do Departamento, Maria do Socorro Rebouças, para pedir esclarecimentos do órgão acerca dos procedimentos para a remessa de lucros para o exterior.
Trata-se de uma antiga demanda dos associados da ADIT, que tinham dúvidas sobre como proceder durante transações comerciais com empresas estrangeiras para parceria em projetos turísticos e imobiliários no Nordeste brasileiro.
Os representantes do Banco Central esclareceram os seguintes tópicos:

Abertura de conta-corrente – Segundo o BC, não há restrições para abertura de conta corrente no Brasil por estrangeiros. Qualquer problema nesse sentido, é uma decisão única dos bancos. O BC se comprometeu em discutir o assunto com a Federação Brasileira de Bancos (Febraban),já que queixas semelhantes são feitas por outros setores econômicos;

Financiamento – Também não há limitação para financiamento, por parte de bancos brasileiros, para compra de imóveis no Brasil por estrangeiros. O BC sugeriu que a ADIT deve procurar a Associação Brasileira das Entidades de Crédito Imobiliário e Poupança (Abecip) para discutir o tema;

Compra com cartão de crédito internacional – O Banco Central desconhece restrições para compra de propriedades no Brasil com cartões de crédito internacionais, mas prometeu uma análise mais detalhada do caso;

Vendedor/Comprador estrangeiros - Quando o vendedor e o comprador do imóvel não residem no Brasil, o pagamento pode ser feito no exterior, mas analisando aspectos de tributação e registro do imóvel;

CPF para remessa de recursos - Não é necessária a apresentação de CPF, por parte do investidor estrangeiro, para a realização do câmbio, mas o documento é essencial para a escrituração do imóvel em nome do não-residente;
Procuração - Um procurador pode receber recursos enviados pelo comprador não-residente;
Empresas estrangeiras – Empresas estrangeiras especializadas em remeter recursos para o exterior só podem operar no Brasil em parceria com bancos nacionais.
A ADIT se comprometeu em formalizar uma consulta com todos esses itens para que possam ser esclarecidos pelo Banco Central. O presidente da Associação, Felipe Cavalcante, aproveitou a ocasião para solicitar dados dos investimentos turísticos e imobiliários em cada estado nordestino e para convidar o BC para participar, como palestrante, das conferências do Nordeste Invest 2007. O evento, que ocorre de 13 a 15 de junho, em Salvador, será o maior evento de negócios dos segmentos turístico e imobiliário do Nordeste.
Felipe Cavalcante saiu otimista da reunião com o Banco Central. Para o presidente da ADIT, a receptividade dos representantes do BC demonstra que o diálogo entre as duas entidades será bastante produtivo para desburocratizar o processo de investimentos estrangeiros nos setores turístico e imobiliário no Brasil.
Fonte: Adit Nordeste

] unquote
 
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RalphJ

New Member
1/ Foreigners non-residents are entitled to have a current account in Brazil

that's not new news surfing. The problem is, what's legally allowed and what is actually possible are two different things. For nearly a year now all banks here in Brazil are not only refusing to open accounts for foreigners without CNPJ (the brazilian identification number given once some type of "permanent" visa is obtained-investors, retirement, etc.) numbers, but have closed/are closing the accounts that have previously existed without CNPJ numbers!:mad:
 
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