New Natal Airport

[Kliffy]

Have the landing lights been turned on yet?

 

[cariocadagema]

Like the majoity of posts, me and my brasilian colleagues just laugh at the nievity of gringos on this site. If you havent lived here for any reasonable amout of time, foreign people just dont understand how things work here.

Get back to me in 2010 when all completed. I will certainly eat my words for all to see.

Well, 4 years have past.
What has changed ?

With all these expectations about future tourism over there.
For more than 12-15 years they try to put Natal, Fortaleza etc (and surroundings) on the worldmap of tourism.
8-10 years ago there was a boom, but now it’s declining.
Just hype histories like (never to come) hugh airports, 10 days world cup soccer, biggest aquariums, biggest this or that (in the future) will change that.
Most foreign tourist go there once, say” It was nice, next year something better (or cheaper)".
Yes the backpacker comes back (and unfortunately the sextourist).
But they don't have a penny to spend.

As I have written before, this new Natal airport will just be a small to medium size Brazilian airport. It will still be one of the smallest airports in the North East after it's ready.
Cargo Hub?
There will be a cargo area of 1800 M2, this is nothing, not even 1% of the Brazilian airport cargo area capacity (Only the city of Campinas already has a cargo area of more than 80.000 M2).
As you can read before in this topic, government is spending some $ 80 million.
Where in the world can you build a decent airport for 80 million ?
It’s always billions.

And the rich and wealthy people….will they ever come ?
What do these places and Spa’s offer ?
Nothing for the rich.
Just to show an example.

In the state Bahia they have the Transamerica Hotel on the Comandatuba Island.
A private island with a big hotel (for more than 20 years already).

They have their own airport (hotel airport) with a 2000 meter runway.

Hotel Transamerica - Private Airport

There are daily flights from Sao Paulo with GOL and TAM, Boeings and Airbus 319/320.
I have been there a few times, making a stop with a TAM flight from SP to Salvador or Aracaju.
Sometimes the plane crowded with wealthy hotel guests.
Hotel airport full of private or chartered Falcons and LearJets , Brazilian but also from abroad.
People from Hollywood go there, rich Europeans, Asians.
There is a 700 thousand M2 18 holes Golf Course.
The region is one of the best places in the world to fish Blue Marlin. I know people come from all over the world to catch their once in a lifetime Marlin.
They have never ending beaches, horses, tenis, sailing, cruising, you can rent jetski’s, sports, children care, several ***** restaurants.
Not just a few bungalows and a small smimming pool full of drunk people and screaming children, close to a public beach.
It’s al private there.

Transamerica Hotel - Comandatuba

And what do the guests pay ?
You can make good deals with TAM or GOL for a 3-4-7 days stay, paying LESS (hotel + flights) than what you expect your foreign tourists will pay.

Brazil, the North East is a good place to live, have your property for yourself, but stop dreaming about the big money that will never come.
Don’t believe in crowds of tourists, Brazilians or Foreigners.
This is a story that’s going on for more than 10 years now. These places had their change and it passed.
Come back to earth.
Discover other places in Brazil, sometimes better.
Specially now the Brazilian economy is getting worse every day.
Invest your money, but keep your ears and eyes WIDE OPEN.

 

[dhoskings]

You are supposed to back up your claims with proof.
You are not just supposed to make things up again Mr. Troll :fight:

Is this what you do all day at work. I hope you aren't working on anything serious.

Well, 4 years have past.
What has changed ?

With all these expectations about future tourism over there.
For more than 12-15 years they try to put Natal, Fortaleza etc (and surroundings) on the worldmap of tourism.
8-10 years ago there was a boom, but now it’s declining.
Just hype histories like (never to come) hugh airports, 10 days world cup soccer, biggest aquariums, biggest this or that (in the future) will change that.
Most foreign tourist go there once, say” It was nice, next year something better (or cheaper)".
Yes the backpacker comes back (and unfortunately the sextourist).
But they don't have a penny to spend.

As I have written before, this new Natal airport will just be a small to medium size Brazilian airport. It will still be one of the smallest airports in the North East after it's ready.
Cargo Hub?
There will be a cargo area of 1800 M2, this is nothing, not even 1% of the Brazilian airport cargo area capacity (Only the city of Campinas already has a cargo area of more than 80.000 M2).
As you can read before in this topic, government is spending some $ 80 million.
Where in the world can you build a decent airport for 80 million ?
It’s always billions.

And the rich and wealthy people….will they ever come ?
What do these places and Spa’s offer ?
Nothing for the rich.
Just to show an example.

In the state Bahia they have the Transamerica Hotel on the Comandatuba Island.
A private island with a big hotel (for more than 20 years already).

They have their own airport (hotel airport) with a 2000 meter runway.

Hotel Transamerica - Private Airport

There are daily flights from Sao Paulo with GOL and TAM, Boeings and Airbus 319/320.
I have been there a few times, making a stop with a TAM flight from SP to Salvador or Aracaju.
Sometimes the plane crowded with wealthy hotel guests.
Hotel airport full of private or chartered Falcons and LearJets , Brazilian but also from abroad.
People from Hollywood go there, rich Europeans, Asians.
There is a 700 thousand M2 18 holes Golf Course.
The region is one of the best places in the world to fish Blue Marlin. I know people come from all over the world to catch their once in a lifetime Marlin.
They have never ending beaches, horses, tenis, sailing, cruising, you can rent jetski’s, sports, children care, several ***** restaurants.
Not just a few bungalows and a small smimming pool full of drunk people and screaming children, close to a public beach.
It’s al private there.

Transamerica Hotel - Comandatuba

And what do the guests pay ?
You can make good deals with TAM or GOL for a 3-4-7 days stay, paying LESS (hotel + flights) than what you expect your foreign tourists will pay.

Brazil, the North East is a good place to live, have your property for yourself, but stop dreaming about the big money that will never come.
Don’t believe in crowds of tourists, Brazilians or Foreigners.
This is a story that’s going on for more than 10 years now. These places had their change and it passed.
Come back to earth.
Discover other places in Brazil, sometimes better.
Specially now the Brazilian economy is getting worse every day.
Invest your money, but keep your ears and eyes WIDE OPEN.

 

[cariocadagema]

According Brazilian government Infraero numbers.

Infraero Stats 2003 - 2012

Natal Airport:
Year – Aircrafts international flights / Number of international passengers.

2003 - 655 / 101.687
2004 - 1038 / 184.721
2005 - 2190 / 245.094
2006 - 2002 / 249.189
2007 - 1724 / 218.825
2008 - 1360 / 164.113
2009 - 1037 / 127.726
2010 - 868 / 118.055
2011 - 1068 / 123.037
2012 - 973 / 107.669

Note: An international passenger is counted arriving and departing.
Idem with int. aircrafts, also counted arriving and again departing.
Brazilians travelling abroad departing from Natal (TAP) are also counted twice, departing and arriving
It’s also a fact that the last 5 years the number of Brazilians travelling abroad has more than tripled (3x).
Probably in 2004-2006 only some 20% of the international passengers were Brazilians, now the will be more than 50%.
So this means:

2006 – 250 thousand international arrivals and departures = 125.000 int. travelers.
20% Brazilians and 80% = 100.000 international passengers.

2012 – 107 thousand int. arrivals and departures = 54.000 int. travelers.
50% Brazilians, and 50% = 27.000 int. travelers.

This is a decline of almost 75% of (probably) int. tourists the last 6 years.
(Also , the last years some of these int. tourist will not even stay in Natal, they will take a domestic flight to Maceio or Joao Pessoa etc, which makes it even worse).

But in the same time the number of hotel rooms, spas, and pousadas must have increased like crazy. See you guys investing.
So, no doubt, there must be an enormous bubble.
4 or 5 hotel rooms for each arriving tourist.
You can ask rental prices what you want, but if there is a surplus, only the ones with the lowest prices will have success. To low maybe, but what to do ? Travel agencies love to rip their hotel clients.

It’s also clear to see, international travel agencies tried to put Natal and other places in the North-East on the world map. They had success 2003-2006, but after that, they or their passengers/tourists must have dropped their plans. There are so many nice and beautiful place (and cheaper) in the world.

Nobody can force a tourist to go where he doesn’t like to go.
Not a new small to medium size (Brazilian size) airport or 4 soccer games in 10 days will change this situation. What will happen if Natal will host only games like Angola x Afghanistan or so ?

 

[dhoskings]

First of all I am surprised you sit at work doing this all day.

I notice you chose to ignore the big increase in domestic traffic most of which is tourist. I am sure you will say it is just more poor people going to SP and your proof will be that you saw this on a plane you traveled on once. Instead of saying crap like this, go and find the tourist numbers and then prove your argument.

For an engineer you are really bad at looking at figures, maybe you are a sanitation engineer, which explains a lot.

Get more proof for each part of your argument becuase it is obvious that you are making up facts to suit yourself.

According Brazilian government Infraero numbers.

Infraero Stats 2003 - 2012

Natal Airport:
Year – Aircrafts international flights / Number of international passengers.

2003 - 655 / 101.687
2004 - 1038 / 184.721
2005 - 2190 / 245.094
2006 - 2002 / 249.189
2007 - 1724 / 218.825
2008 - 1360 / 164.113
2009 - 1037 / 127.726
2010 - 868 / 118.055
2011 - 1068 / 123.037
2012 - 973 / 107.669

Note: An international passenger is counted arriving and departing.
Idem with int. aircrafts, also counted arriving and again departing.
Brazilians travelling abroad departing from Natal (TAP) are also counted twice, departing and arriving
It’s also a fact that the last 5 years the number of Brazilians travelling abroad has more than tripled (3x).
Probably in 2004-2006 only some 20% of the international passengers were Brazilians, now the will be more than 50%.
So this means:

2006 – 250 thousand international arrivals and departures = 125.000 int. travelers.
20% Brazilians and 80% = 100.000 international passengers.

2012 – 107 thousand int. arrivals and departures = 54.000 int. travelers.
50% Brazilians, and 50% = 27.000 int. travelers.

This is a decline of almost 75% of (probably) int. tourists the last 6 years.
(Also , the last years some of these int. tourist will not even stay in Natal, they will take a domestic flight to Maceio or Joao Pessoa etc, which makes it even worse).

But in the same time the number of hotel rooms, spas, and pousadas must have increased like crazy. See you guys investing.
So, no doubt, there must be an enormous bubble.
4 or 5 hotel rooms for each arriving tourist.
You can ask rental prices what you want, but if there is a surplus, only the ones with the lowest prices will have success. To low maybe, but what to do ? Travel agencies love to rip their hotel clients.

It’s also clear to see, international travel agencies tried to put Natal and other places in the North-East on the world map. They had success 2003-2006, but after that, they or their passengers/tourists must have dropped their plans. There are so many nice and beautiful place (and cheaper) in the world.

Nobody can force a tourist to go where he doesn’t like to go.
Not a new small to medium size (Brazilian size) airport or 4 soccer games in 10 days will change this situation. What will happen if Natal will host only games like Angola x Afghanistan or so ?

 

[Norbert]

You also forgot to mention how many flying pigs were included in those numbers!

 

[cariocadagema]

You also forgot to mention how many flying pigs were included in those numbers!

“The 2nd biggest (or even biggest) airport in Latin America, 6th largest in the world, Airbus A380 ………

This is really a joke.
You can only find this information (Repeat ONLY) on Natal/Rio Grande do Norte Real Estate related sites. ALL in English. ONLY in English.
Only sites and forums of agents, buyers and sellers.
This story is surely INVENTED, a fairytale, to boost sales.
Here it’s a joke, outside Brazil this would be a crime.

Actually with 2,6 million passengers /year.
The new small-medium Brazilian size airport with max. Capacity of 5 million pass. a/year (projected to get there in 2030).
This airport would not even appear in the top 100 busiest European airports.
In the world top 1000 (thousand) list it will not even be No. 999

List of the busiest airports in Europe


A Brazilian hub airport ? A so important location ?
Well, the airline carriers think different about that.
They will choose the hub they think they need.
1800M2 of cargo handling area ? A joke.
That’s less than the size of a decent plot for a house.

Fig. 3. Airports that are hubs and that should be hubs according to the responses obtained from a survey with air transport experts (n = 79).

A model to identify airport hubs and their importance to tourism in Brazil


About this new airport:

ALTA sees Brazil's first airport privatisation, Natal, as a bad example
In Brazil, the relatively small airport at Natal (the new airport) was privatised earlier this year as a test case before moving on to some the country’s main airports. Mr de Gunten is not encouraged by what he happened at Natal because the winning bid, from a consortium which includes the majority owner of Aeropuertos Argentina 2000, raised twice the amount that the Government originally projected. “They saw that as a great success for Brazil. We saw that as a great concern for Brazil,” Mr de Gunten says.

Brazil airport privatization plan comes under attack !

And so on………………………………………………………..

Not ONE (=01) official document or site talking about this story.

 

[dhoskings]

When are you going to provide some proof for the previous statements you have made??

“The 2nd biggest (or even biggest) airport in Latin America, 6th largest in the world, Airbus A380 ………

This is really a joke.
You can only find this information (Repeat ONLY) on Natal/Rio Grande do Norte Real Estate related sites. ALL in English. ONLY in English.
Only sites and forums of agents, buyers and sellers.
This story is surely INVENTED, a fairytale, to boost sales.
Here it’s a joke, outside Brazil this would be a crime.

Actually with 2,6 million passengers /year.
The new small-medium Brazilian size airport with max. Capacity of 5 million pass. a/year (projected to get there in 2030).
This airport would not even appear in the top 100 busiest European airports.
In the world top 1000 (thousand) list it will not even be No. 999

List of the busiest airports in Europe


A Brazilian hub airport ? A so important location ?
Well, the airline carriers think different about that.
They will choose the hub they think they need.
1800M2 of cargo handling area ? A joke.
That’s less than the size of a decent plot for a house.

Fig. 3. Airports that are hubs and that should be hubs according to the responses obtained from a survey with air transport experts (n = 79).

A model to identify airport hubs and their importance to tourism in Brazil


About this new airport:



Brazil airport privatization plan comes under attack !

And so on………………………………………………………..

Not ONE (=01) official document or site talking about this story.

 

[Norbert]

In an old newsletter of the ACI the following was quoted:

"GROWTH AT NATAL AIRPORT
In the last 5 years, Natal Airport experienced a significant rise in the number of foreign passengers passing by its airport. Since the year 2000, the number of passengers grew from 36 thousand to 245 thousand. This represents a 668% rise and positions Natal as the sixth city in Brazil having the largest international passengers’ movement after São Paulo, Río de Janeiro, Porto Alegre, Salvador, and Fortaleza."

This statement could have been misread, and after a few Chopinhos grown into the 6th largest airport in the world story. Of course, a mere wishful thinking of home-sellers, marketeers and alike ......

 

[cariocadagema]

In an old newsletter of the ACI the following was quoted:

"GROWTH AT NATAL AIRPORT
In the last 5 years, Natal airport experienced a significant rise in the number of foreign passengers passing by its airport. Since the year 2000, the number of passengers grew from 36 thousand to 245 thousand. This represents a 668% rise and positions Natal as the sixth city in Brazil having the largest international passengers’ movement after São Paulo, Río de Janeiro, Porto Alegre, Salvador, and Fortaleza."

This statement could have been misread, and after a few Chopinhos grown into the 6th largest airport in the world story. Of course, a mere wishful thinking of home-sellers, marketeers and alike ......

Now Natal is back to the 2003 level (107.000 int.pass - 2012 ),but No 11 or 12 on the Brazilian "largest international passengers’ movement" list.
(Talking about "Booming" international tourism)
Other Brazilian cities have done it a lot better since then.
Recife (212k),Manaus(198k),Belo Horizonte (442k),Florianoplois (216k),.............
The Rise and Fall !

 

[navaraS]

How come all the land around airport are so cheap?

 

[cariocadagema]

This whole Natal Super-Mega airport story was and still is used ONLY by foreirgn RE agents.
This new airport was always PLANNED to be a medium size airport in the North-East of Brazil, and a small insignificant airport in Brazil like it allways was.
Just a little bit bigger than it was.

 

[Norbert]

now the 3rd largest in the world!!

Please read this non-sense

Geez, it's not even finished and our favorite airport has moved up again and has now become the 4th largest airport in the world.

The AIRPORT COUNCIL INTERNATIONAL must have been busy with other, less important countries, as they do not seem to have updated their records regarding NATAL for a long time Data Centre - have I overlooked it?

Of course, these records cannot possibly be as reliable as the pep-talk info we sometimes read here (no offense) ;-)

Whatever ACI and others say, by merely counting the amount of BS and flying pigs, the new NATAL INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT is an absolute number 1!

Nobody can take that away from them.

When are you going to provide some proof for the previous statements you have made??

 

[LoneRanger]

Geez, it's not even finished and our favorite airport has moved up again and has now become the 4th largest airport in the world.

This is realy unbelievable.
Even within Brazil the new Natal airport will be an unsignificant airport.
6 or 7 slots, hoping to get once to the 2,5 million pass/year target.
No. 5000 or less on the worlds "biggest' airport list.
There are no limits to lie.
What after opening this (tiny) airport and the 2014 soccer worlcup?
I heard, the next hype to sell will be a "Disney Land (or World)" close to Natal.
(Not even tqlking about "PLANNED" 18 hole golfe courses, David Beckham soccer schools, and whatever you can imagine to atract people from outside Brazil to throw their money away.

It's time the Federal Police steps in and put handcufs on some of these "developers" and their "agents".
They are in Brazil, and act illegaly here, we all know that.
And put them some years in a nice 50-man cell.

 

[Norbert]

ARREST, no way

Forget it. That will never happen.
Even here, careful warnings against certain developers who are dubious, to say the least, are removed on Fora like this.
Or the Threads are closed, although thousands of people read it, proving that it is an absolute necessity.
I truly wonder why. After all, it is mostly info which is readily available online.
Is it not in everybody's interest to read the truth, the real truth, and nothing but the truth?

This is really unbelievable.
Even within Brazil the new Natal airport will be an insignificant airport.
6 or 7 slots, hoping to get once to the 2,5 million pass/year target.
No. 5000 or less on the worlds "biggest' airport list.
There are no limits to lie.
What after opening this (tiny) airport and the 2014 soccer world-cup?
I heard, the next hype to sell will be a "Disney Land (or World)" close to Natal.
(Not even tqlking about "PLANNED" 18 hole golfe courses, David Beckham soccer schools, and whatever you can imagine to atract people from outside Brazil to throw their money away.

It's time the Federal Police steps in and put handcufs on some of these "developers" and their "agents".
They are in Brazil, and act illegaly here, we all know that.
And put them some years in a nice 50-man cell.

 

[LoneRanger]

Forget it. That will never happen.
Even here, careful warnings against certain developers who are dubious, to say the least, are removed on Fora like this.

This will happen.
Brazil is getting a bad name, because of these scammers and agents who live here with a so called "investers visa".
Illegal agents without any CRECI number on their names.
Absolutely illegal operating here.
After 5 years they will have to show their "RAIS" numbers end will be send back from where they came from.
And we, and you, can give the government a helping hand.

 

[debzor]

This will happen.
Brazil is getting a bad name, because of these scammers and agents who live here with a so called "investers visa".
Illegal agents without any CRECI number on their names.
Absolutely illegal operating here.
After 5 years they will have to show their "RAIS" numbers end will be send back from where they came from.
And we, and you, can give the government a helping hand.

I have an investor visa, I have a CRECI number, I operate quite legally, I have submitted my RAIS returns, I have successfully renewed my investor visa and I am still doing great business in Brazil.

Please do not tarnish everyone with the same brush... but I do understand where you are coming from.

 

[Norbert]

Why do you even respond?
We all know the scams that are being pulled by rogue agents!

I don't think for a moment that the message was aimed you or the few others.
He was very specifically aiming at those who do not have the required licenses aim specifically at the foreign market.
Often English 'consultants' operating their boiler-rooms out of Spain.
It doesn't help that Real Real Estate Agents in the UK are hardly regulated.

Let's face it - there are tens of very bad apples operating here.
Especially in CE, RN and PB. Tens of Millions have been robbed, and are still being robbed. Not only 'Land Banking' scams, but also Hotels, Resorts and

When this doesn't stop, the Brazilian Industry and Brazilian Court are not helping, the then, unfortunately, the only way is going to the exposing these risks in Europe. There's the Press and the various TV programs.
It must stop!
Instead of removing Postings from Fora like this one because it 'might' influence the Properties industry, is not helping. In fact, it only makes the Forum look guilty by suspicion. Instead it should support its readers and help them.

I have an investor visa, I have a CRECI number, I operate quite legally, I have submitted my RAIS returns, I have successfully renewed my investor visa and I am still doing great business in Brazil.

Please do not tarnish everyone with the same brush... but I do understand where you are coming from.

 

[debzor]

Why do you even respond?
We all know the scams that are being pulled by rogue agents!

I don't think for a moment that the message was aimed you or the few others.
He was very specifically aiming at those who do not have the required licenses aim specifically at the foreign market.
Often English 'consultants' operating their boiler-rooms out of Spain.
It doesn't help that Real Real Estate Agents in the UK are hardly regulated.

Let's face it - there are tens of very bad apples operating here.
Especially in CE, RN and PB. Tens of Millions have been robbed, and are still being robbed. Not only 'Land Banking' scams, but also Hotels, Resorts and

When this doesn't stop, the Brazilian Industry and Brazilian Court are not helping, the then, unfortunately, the only way is going to the exposing these risks in Europe. There's the Press and the various TV programs.
It must stop!
Instead of removing Postings from Fora like this one because it 'might' influence the Properties industry, is not helping. In fact, it only makes the Forum look guilty by suspicion. Instead it should support its readers and help them.

I agree with you, Norbert, my point is that there are some in this forum who are trustworthy...

 

[Veronica]

Perhaps it would be a good idea to read the rules of the forum rather than constantly questioning moderation.

Defamatory posts lead to lawyers letters threatening to sue the forum.

rule 3.3.1 states that posts must not

3.3.1 contain any material which is or could be defamatory in any way;

Any further questioning of moderation will result in infractions. If you are unhappy with any moderators actions please contact them via private message to discuss or contact admin by clicking on the Contact us button on the home page.