Blindness and stupidity when investing in Brazil

[NewYorker]

You couldn't be more correct surfingbrazil...it amazes me that numbers of people that can and do actually fall for this type of thing. When I see people/companies marketing such projects the first thing in my mind is "Keifer Robins" and company!!

Ralph I cannot agree with you more about the crime rate in Natal. I have been there and to other cities in Brazil especially the northeast. After experiencing Natal a few times I have no desire at all to return ever again. Most of the Real Estate People there I encounted were liars , crooks and cheats.
As of lately prices are getting quite ridiculously high as well for small places with small lots . Very crowded and Natal is in bad shape as far as I am concerned.
Joao Pessoa was much much nicer but prices there have risen as well and become just almost as ridiculous as Natal !!
All the areas in around Rio and Sao Paulo are always being given a really bad rap like the areas in NYC. BUT go out of town a bit and you will find some great deals in some very safe areas along the coast.
Cost to get there much better then Northeast and better flights and travel times as well.
I was once a Lover of The Northeast but have since found much better areas in the south now.
Too too much B.S. in the northeast !! You have a better chance of getting a good deal in New York !!!
Good Luck to All and BEWARE !!!

 

[Christopher Jewell]

Hmmm, interesting thread. From my point of view - I'm getting valuable information that either confirms what I imagined, or enlightens me. As a gringo, I'm extra cautious about dealing but my future location in Brazil isn't even determined yet. I only know Sao Paulo - and that's limited. Keep up the good work (ya'll),I looking forward to exploring the possiblities. Rio will be my first visit out of SP - Business 3 days - this month. I'll try to tour the coastal cities on junkets but I've decided Florianopolis will get my first week-long visit. I probably won't go until August and probably the worst month weather-wise but that can't be helped. It's back to Florida in September (again, the worst month) until (ohh,) this time next year. How the market plays out in the next two years doesn't appear to be at my advantage, actually - but I'll make the plunge. Brazil economy looks bright in the near future but that just increases prices. With the bust in the US housing market - it's actually a good time to buy. But I suspect US prices will (still) be more than buying in Brazil.

 

[NewYorker]

Hi Christopher,
I live in Florida in Boca Raton. Dp you have a place in Florida as well ? As far as prices here they are coming down but it is getting crowded and they will go up again especially in choice area. However the cost of living is ever rising as even in Brazil but much much higher here as I am sure you know and then there are these ridiculous TAXES !! However with all that said I think you are wise to look for a place in Brazil which I think you will do much much better with in the short term and even very possibly in the long term as well.
I would try and stay away from the areas frequented by gringoes though as you aew sure to pat a much higher price for much of the same if not less in Brazil and in the northeast you may even get ripped a bit more.
I am totally turned off to the over publicized Northeast now after spending so much time there. Ite can get quite humid at times and other times the raisn are quite bad ( getting worse ) and the place floods out very quickly especially by the beaches.
Travel expense and times are much more favorable to Sao Paulo and I suspect they will remain so if not get even better.
My opinion of the northeast is that is was a place not so long ago where people and especially developers could buy land cheap , build small bad houses on it and bill it as prime oceanfront property to gringos trying to compare it and their prices to American and European Properties which are supposed to be similar. A very similar situation has cost more then a few New Yorker's and Northerners here in Florida in much the same way as many of them think they are getting a great deal here and a much bigger house for their $$ out west only to find out they are actually in the boonies 10 miles from the nearest beach , bad schools , and the mosquitoes and the everglades for neighbors.
To many gringoes try and take the cheap, cheap road in Brazil. As they say and this goes for whatever Country you are buying in " You get what you pat for " and " If it sounds good to be true it usually is !! ).
I truly believe that the coastline in the Sao Paulo area will be much more fruitful in Brazil's Future then the northeast as things are changing there now.
Just a few of my thoughts I wanted to pass along to you.
Keep in touch please
Richard

 

[Christopher Jewell]

I have a good location in StPetersburg - 900 sq/ft 2bdrm 1bath (add) 1 car attached garage w/fenced rear yard 75x100 standard. It will finance my next purchase. All I can do for now is watch the market and look for my preferred location. My Namorada is from Salvador and.. WAS ..anxious to return someday, but she seems less interested lately. I am looking for Hawaii in Brazil without mosquitos I guess. The southern region appears to be more affordable all around and is a gentle distance from the Equator. StPete has abundant beaches that I ignore except for a short sail from time to time, so beaches are not my 1st priority - mild weather is.

 

[debzor]

Hi Christopher,
I live in Florida in Boca Raton. Dp you have a place in Florida as well ? As far as prices here they are coming down but it is getting crowded and they will go up again especially in choice area. However the cost of living is ever rising as even in Brazil but much much higher here as I am sure you know and then there are these ridiculous TAXES !! However with all that said I think you are wise to look for a place in Brazil which I think you will do much much better with in the short term and even very possibly in the long term as well.
I would try and stay away from the areas frequented by gringoes though as you aew sure to pat a much higher price for much of the same if not less in Brazil and in the northeast you may even get ripped a bit more.
I am totally turned off to the over publicized Northeast now after spending so much time there. Ite can get quite humid at times and other times the raisn are quite bad ( getting worse ) and the place floods out very quickly especially by the beaches.
Travel expense and times are much more favorable to Sao Paulo and I suspect they will remain so if not get even better.
My opinion of the northeast is that is was a place not so long ago where people and especially developers could buy land cheap , build small bad houses on it and bill it as prime oceanfront property to gringos trying to compare it and their prices to American and European Properties which are supposed to be similar. A very similar situation has cost more then a few New Yorker's and Northerners here in Florida in much the same way as many of them think they are getting a great deal here and a much bigger house for their $$ out west only to find out they are actually in the boonies 10 miles from the nearest beach , bad schools , and the mosquitoes and the everglades for neighbors.
To many gringoes try and take the cheap, cheap road in Brazil. As they say and this goes for whatever Country you are buying in " You get what you pat for " and " If it sounds good to be true it usually is !! ).
I truly believe that the coastline in the Sao Paulo area will be much more fruitful in Brazil's Future then the northeast as things are changing there now.
Just a few of my thoughts I wanted to pass along to you.
Keep in touch please
Richard

NewYorker - I know Boca well and still have a property up the road in Royal Palm Beach, although I have not visited for a long time. Are things picking up there yet?

I now live in NE Brasil, but not near Natal - and there is an awful lot more to NE Brasil than just Natal, as I am sure you know...!

 

[NewYorker]

Congratulations on your success and thank you for correcting what was merely a typo on my part. I make quite a bit of them.
I have many many friends who are Brazilian here in the United States who have always advised me about Brazil. I have to say for the most part I trust them very much and most are very knowledgeable as well.
Miami I don't know . . . . . I think I'd rather go back to my beach house in Amagansett New York on Long Island before I did that or my home in ( rented now ) in Brooklyn Heights.
I find many areas in Brazil very nice and I do love the people. I think it would be a great place to retire and escape the ridiculous taxes we are made to pay here not to mention the rising cost of living as well. I just hate taxes , don't you ? One thing I love there is the cost of laborers and domestic help not to mention the loyalty some have towards their employers.
I have to admit I have never even been to Rio except for a short time changing flights there from time to time nor would I ever really want to live there.
I do have a friend from Fort Lauderdale who just bought a beach house last year about an hour north of Rio at an extremely reasonable price. He Loves it there and has no problems to date living there nor making his deal there. As a matter of fact he is already thinkiing of buying some rental property near his place there as well. This is no street smart guy either but a simple guy who sold his internet / cell phone business in Pennsyvania. He also has a fantastic Penthouse apartment off Hallandale Blvd overlooking the intracoastal and the ocean here in Florida.
Most people aren't as fortunate as you think you are and many others are nearing retirement and facing days where they will be earning much less once they do.
I have a Cousin who is very Big in Real Estate in New York who owns a High School he rents to The City of New York, 2 Parking Garages in Manhattan, a Huge House in Admiral's Cove in Jupiter which is empty most of the year and another Huge House in East Hampton on Long Island not to mention a very successful shopping center on Long Island as well on Sunrise Highway. He is presently building 72 3/2/2 townhomes in Hauppauge Long Island Area ( but in no hurry he tells me these days ) as well as opening a New Bank with a Couple of Friends on Long Island.
Just yesterday knowing that I travel often to Brazil he called asking me many, many questions about Brazil because in his circle of associates and friends they are very much interested in building large projects there now even more so then here in Florida.
You seem to think Florida is going to go back to where it was in 3 years but they seem to think it will begin to snap back by then and maybe snap is the wrong choice of words here. They think by then it may begin to turn around at a slow pace if any. Remember there are still many , many places out there that will be foreclosed on in the next year or two which will be added to present inventory lowering prices a bit more.
These guys are no spring chickens or any where near 40 years old but they have been in Real Estate forever and a day since they were in their early 20's in New York City .
Taking all into consideration we are very fortunate here in the State of Florida not to have had a Hurricane the past two years. If we had things would have become much worse here I think, but then what do I know amongst all these professional of which I choose to listen to the older and wiser guys from New York.
They are so interested in fact they are flying down to see me and checking on what it will take to fly to Brazil on their private jet. Wow, that will surely be a thrill even for me not having to wait in those lines :O)
In case you haven't learned or heard The First American Title Company now trusts Brazil enough to Issue Title Insurance there on lands bought by gringos. I saw this in a Real Estate ad for a property in Brazil, checked it out personally and it is true they do issue title insurance policies and will represent you in court there as well if you have any problems at their expense not yours. A friend of mine has worked for them for 35 years and even he didn't know this . He had to check it out for me and got back to me with all the details in less then an hour. Another friend of mine actually bought a beach front property in Brazil's Northeast and they did it for him. That was two years ago and he has since found an area he likes even better near Sao Paulo. When he bought the exchage rate was 3.20 reais per US dollar when he sold for more then what he paid two years later he made about a 40% profit and sold it to an American when the exchange rate was only 1.68 reais per US Dollar. You can do the math he did very little and did very well in just two years there . . . . and no problems at all. Maybe the problem is Rio ? He has since bought another place and is starting to build and is thrilled with paying less then $40 US Dollars a square foot for a Great Place with everything !!
Take Care and contuinued success
Hope I did not make too many typos this time I tried not too :O)

 

[NewYorker]

Hi Denzor,
Nope prices are still down As a matter of fact I was up in Royal Palm Beach Village way out west nice area but homes there are being given away Boca got hit a bit but not as bad as Miami and some other areas . At least where I am on the water with docks . I guess that may have helped a bit. As far as Miami well . . . .The Bigger they are The Harder they Fall unless you are in New York that is hehehe New York is New York !!
Some people think things are about to bounce back but I do not think so because people are losing jobs and 2009 is the year when a ton of adjustable morgages will adjust for people already struggling to make their payments.
When that happens many will be foreclosed on and the market will be flooded again with another supply of lower priced houses increasing the supply and lowering the prices even more.
Many here that are interested in buying, knowledgeable people are taking their time finsining projects already started and not in any hurry to buy anything before prices start to go up. As a matter of fact they feel we are about a year away from them to stop falling . . . possibly !! maybe longer. Buying now can mean still losing and they feel it is better to wait at least anothe r9 months to a year.
Remember we have an election going on here as well and Congress or The White House doesn't seem to be doing ANYTHING to help the housing situation. As a matter of fact theonly bank I know of first hand that is even attempting to help people in trouble out is Bank of America. If there are others I am not aware of it BUT there are all of a sudden plenty of Companies out there advertising hard money and ways to get people out of trouble which usually simply gets then in even deeper.
Hey You enjoy Brazil ans stay in touch . . . . . . I can tell you're a good
guy :O)
Sorry for amy typing mistakes . . . some people get a bit upset over them. Hey it's a b*tch getting old :O)

 

[mlawler]

Lago Azul

Do you have any information concerning the development 'Lago Azul", located in Tibau?? Any information about the companies involved, Costatur and Promaga, would be beneficial as well.

 

[JMBroad]

Hi Mlawler what exactly would you like to know about the development? I researched the legalities about two years ago in some depth and came out to see it at that time. I haven't spoken to anyone there in about a year but I have driven past the development a couple of times in the past month or so.

 

[robh]

Do you have any information concerning the development 'Lago Azul", located in Tibau?? Any information about the companies involved, Costatur and Promaga, would be beneficial as well.

Hi mlawler,

Have you bought there?

Regards,
Rob.

 

[mlawler]

Lago Azul

Hi Mlawler what exactly would you like to know about the development? I researched the legalities about two years ago in some depth and came out to see it at that time. I haven't spoken to anyone there in about a year but I have driven past the development a couple of times in the past month or so.

Hello JM. I was there last July and was not very happy with what I saw. I purchased a 1 bdr unit after being involved with the Mateos mess at Lagoa de Coelho. Costatur gave me 3 options after Lagoa. I thought Lago Azul was the best. I have been made aware that Promaga has stopped paying after committing to 100 plus units at Lago. The project looks dead. Has anything changed? I am in contact with my lawyer, Manzanares Int, and Costatur. Just looking for answers..Thx, M.Lawler

 

[mlawler]

Lago Azul

Hi mlawler,

Have you bought there?

Regards,
Rob.

Hello Rob.

Yes, I have purchased there. It was one of the options I was given after the Mateos mess at Lagoa de Coelho. I was there this past July and was not very happy with what I saw; and the excuses given. Are you involved?
Thx, M. Lawler

 

[robh]

Hello Rob.

Yes, I have purchased there. It was one of the options I was given after the Mateos mess at Lagoa de Coelho. I was there this past July and was not very happy with what I saw; and the excuses given. Are you involved?
Thx, M. Lawler

We are not involved with them anymore except for helping our clients who bought there. There is legal action going on right now so it isn't wise to comment on publicly, but your agent should be able to give you more information about what is going on.

Regards,
Rob.

 

[AlTag2000]

Getting Funds From Brazil to The U.S.

Can someone please help me. My father-in-law passed away three years ago. He was a U.S. citizen and a resident of Brazil. He worked for years at GE in Rio. He left a sizeable estate down there, all purchased while living there with Brazilian funds. We are now in the process of selliing his property but our Brazilian attorney can not seem to get a straight answer from any one down there as to how we get the Reais converted to dollars and wired to our bank account in the U.S. since we can't open a bank account in Brazil since we aren't resident. Does anyone have any experience with this thanks.

Al

 

[debzor]

Can someone please help me. My father-in-law passed away three years ago. He was a U.S. citizen and a resident of Brazil. He worked for years at GE in Rio. He left a sizeable estate down there, all purchased while living there with Brazilian funds. We are now in the process of selliing his property but our Brazilian attorney can not seem to get a straight answer from any one down there as to how we get the Reais converted to dollars and wired to our bank account in the U.S. since we can't open a bank account in Brazil since we aren't resident. Does anyone have any experience with this thanks.

Al

Hi Al

Is your Brazilian attorney actually in Brazil? I am amazed that they cannot help better than this.

I believe there is a lot of work to be done to release his estate to you, with many costs. So firstly you have to decide that it is worth it.

Did he have a will here in Brazil? If so this will help, if not - far more complicated. The Brazilian law is also quite clear on inheritance, in respect of what the wife and children get - how many of these relations might there be?

Then you need a power of attorney over his estate, (if he died intestate, ie without a will, then this will need a court order which can take years),to be able to sell the assets.

So assuming you have all the cash in a bank (and it needs to be the right bank, one that deals internationally),then you have to settle his tax affairs, and get legal permission from the authorities to repatriate the funds to a bank overseas - then you will receive the dollars.

I am not an expert, and have simplified the above very much. But I would definitely seek an English speaking attorney here in Brazil, and an accountant, who perhaps understand these things as the law is extremely complicated.

This will probably cost a lot, and there will be many other taxes and fees to pay, and I expect his family will need to make several trips here - so, firstly, is it worth it? It will also take a long, long time...

 

[AlTag2000]

Inheritance - Getting Funds From Brazil to The U.S.

Debzor:

Thanks for your reply. See my comments below.
Is your Brazilian attorney actually in Brazil? I am amazed that they cannot help better than this.


1. Yes, she is in Rio

I believe there is a lot of work to be done to release his estate to you, with many costs. So firstly you have to decide that it is worth it.

2. We're talking about approx. R2.500.000,00. Don't know what the taxes and/or costs will be, other than the real estate commission, but when all is said and done I think it still will be worth it.


Did he have a will here in Brazil? If so this will help, if not - far more complicated. The Brazilian law is also quite clear on inheritance, in respect of what the wife and children get - how many of these relations might there be?

3. Yes there is a Brazilian will and everything has gone through the judicial process to identify all of his assets. My wife is the executrix and all proceeds will be in her name for her siblings.. We understand how the asset are divided. My mother-in-law live with us in the States kno, so we will need to get her funds transferred into her account bank account as well.

Then you need a power of attorney over his estate, (if he died intestate, ie without a will, then this will need a court order which can take years),to be able to sell the assets.

4. All the power of attorneys (Procuracaos) have been initiated. This process has been going on since May 2007 and the court order has finally been signed off by the judge.

So assuming you have all the cash in a bank (and it needs to be the right bank, one that deals internationally),then you have to settle his tax affairs, and get legal permission from the authorities to repatriate the funds to a bank overseas - then you will receive the dollars.

5. No, not all the cash is in a bank. There are two apartments and several properties that are in the process of being sold, plus stock. Therefore, the question is how to we get the money into a bank, converted to dollars and transfered, since we can't open a Brazilian bank account. Our attorney believe's she can deposit the fund in her account and with the proper documentation regarding the liquidation of the assets, get the transfer authorized through the Central Bank, but I can't get this verified.

This will probably cost a lot, and there will be many other taxes and fees to pay, and I expect his family will need to make several trips here -

FYI wee've been to Rio six times in the last three years to get things signed, notarized and obtain a CPF number.


If anyone else has any insight I would appreciate it. Thanks.

 

[debzor]

Debzor:

Thanks for your reply. See my comments below.
Is your Brazilian attorney actually in Brazil? I am amazed that they cannot help better than this.


1. Yes, she is in Rio

I believe there is a lot of work to be done to release his estate to you, with many costs. So firstly you have to decide that it is worth it.

2. We're talking about approx. R2.500.000,00. Don't know what the taxes and/or costs will be, other than the real estate commission, but when all is said and done I think it still will be worth it.


Did he have a will here in Brazil? If so this will help, if not - far more complicated. The Brazilian law is also quite clear on inheritance, in respect of what the wife and children get - how many of these relations might there be?

3. Yes there is a Brazilian will and everything has gone through the judicial process to identify all of his assets. My wife is the executrix and all proceeds will be in her name for her siblings.. We understand how the asset are divided. My mother-in-law live with us in the States kno, so we will need to get her funds transferred into her account bank account as well.

Then you need a power of attorney over his estate, (if he died intestate, ie without a will, then this will need a court order which can take years),to be able to sell the assets.

4. All the power of attorneys (Procuracaos) have been initiated. This process has been going on since May 2007 and the court order has finally been signed off by the judge.

So assuming you have all the cash in a bank (and it needs to be the right bank, one that deals internationally),then you have to settle his tax affairs, and get legal permission from the authorities to repatriate the funds to a bank overseas - then you will receive the dollars.

5. No, not all the cash is in a bank. There are two apartments and several properties that are in the process of being sold, plus stock. Therefore, the question is how to we get the money into a bank, converted to dollars and transfered, since we can't open a Brazilian bank account. Our attorney believe's she can deposit the fund in her account and with the proper documentation regarding the liquidation of the assets, get the transfer authorized through the Central Bank, but I can't get this verified.

This will probably cost a lot, and there will be many other taxes and fees to pay, and I expect his family will need to make several trips here -

FYI wee've been to Rio six times in the last three years to get things signed, notarized and obtain a CPF number.


If anyone else has any insight I would appreciate it. Thanks.

Seems to me you are well down the road, but you have a problem with a bank account.

I would not advise placing this amount of money in an attorney's account - they do not have escrow (or similar here),and there is a danger you may never see it...

Surely your late father in law must have had a bank account? If you have POA over his affairs, this will work for the bank account - is this not possible? Then you can send to the US from there when all is done.

 

[AlTag2000]

Inheritance - Getting Funds From Brazil to The U.S.

Yes my father-in-law had joint accounts with my mother-in-law which are still active. However, one sale, will be a cashier's check, will be in my wife's name and it's my understanding it can only be deposited in an account in her name, which of course we don't have.

Regarding the funds for my mother-in-law, I would think as well, that those funds could be simply deposited in her account and then wired to the U.S. But all the feedback we get from our attorney and as U.S. friend who lives in Brazil who has spoken with several banks, leads us to believe it's not that simple, which I find difficult to comprehend.

 

[debzor]

Yes my father-in-law had joint accounts with my mother-in-law which are still active. However, one sale, will be a cashier's check, will be in my wife's name and it's my understanding it can only be deposited in an account in her name, which of course we don't have.

Regarding the funds for my mother-in-law, I would think as well, that those funds could be simply deposited in her account and then wired to the U.S. But all the feedback we get from our attorney and as U.S. friend who lives in Brazil who has spoken with several banks, leads us to believe it's not that simple, which I find difficult to comprehend.

I sympathise - the banking laws here are archaic and complicated, but they are designed to protect the country from money laundering, tax evasion, etc.

You cannot sell a property owned by your father in law, and have the proceeds sent abroad from Brazil in another name. It is also not simple to just deposit funds in a Brazilian bank and wire them abroad. This is not the US, and you have to work within the Brazilian system.

I would suggest all funds go into the bank account, then you can distribute from there. You will certainly have to pay all the taxes, but this is why this system exists!!!

 

[Matida Fernandes]

Debzor:

Thanks for your reply. See my comments below.
Is your Brazilian attorney actually in Brazil? I am amazed that they cannot help better than this.


1. Yes, she is in Rio

I believe there is a lot of work to be done to release his estate to you, with many costs. So firstly you have to decide that it is worth it.

2. We're talking about approx. R2.500.000,00. Don't know what the taxes and/or costs will be, other than the real estate commission, but when all is said and done I think it still will be worth it.


Did he have a will here in Brazil? If so this will help, if not - far more complicated. The Brazilian law is also quite clear on inheritance, in respect of what the wife and children get - how many of these relations might there be?

3. Yes there is a Brazilian will and everything has gone through the judicial process to identify all of his assets. My wife is the executrix and all proceeds will be in her name for her siblings.. We understand how the asset are divided. My mother-in-law live with us in the States kno, so we will need to get her funds transferred into her account bank account as well.

Then you need a power of attorney over his estate, (if he died intestate, ie without a will, then this will need a court order which can take years),to be able to sell the assets.

4. All the power of attorneys (Procuracaos) have been initiated. This process has been going on since May 2007 and the court order has finally been signed off by the judge.

So assuming you have all the cash in a bank (and it needs to be the right bank, one that deals internationally),then you have to settle his tax affairs, and get legal permission from the authorities to repatriate the funds to a bank overseas - then you will receive the dollars.

5. No, not all the cash is in a bank. There are two apartments and several properties that are in the process of being sold, plus stock. Therefore, the question is how to we get the money into a bank, converted to dollars and transfered, since we can't open a Brazilian bank account. Our attorney believe's she can deposit the fund in her account and with the proper documentation regarding the liquidation of the assets, get the transfer authorized through the Central Bank, but I can't get this verified.

This will probably cost a lot, and there will be many other taxes and fees to pay, and I expect his family will need to make several trips here -

FYI wee've been to Rio six times in the last three years to get things signed, notarized and obtain a CPF number.


If anyone else has any insight I would appreciate it. Thanks.

Considering that there is a judicial process and all the orders have been signed, the safest way is to ask your attorney to present a petition on the same process requesting to open a judicial´s account. But make sure that the power of attorney given to your lawyer doesn´t authorize her to touch this account. Once you sold the properties your lawyer can present another petition in order to send the money to whom own what was given in the will. On a request of the court, Central Bank will have to say what has to be done in order to send the money to the US, I think is safer than you trying to do yourself.
I also think that, before doing anything, you should get a tax lawyer to help you to pay less tax, because the tax in this situation will be huge.